Navigating the Top Series: Trailblazing Executive Leaders Share Their Journey with COO, Kelly Sia

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 0:27

I want to welcome everybody back to Face Under Fire. I'm David Kreguts, the Resilient Leadership Guide, your host and moderator for this show. Now, this show aims to support executives to improve their leadership and impact and gain insights into how to be more resilient during these crazy and disruptive times. Today, I'm very excited to add another addition to my Navigating the Top series, and during this series, I interview current and former seasoned and trailblazing executives and ask them to share a little bit about their journey. Now, goal is to hear how they navigate leadership to build great cultures and high-performing teams, but additionally, I also explore how these executives are navigating the challenging times we find ourselves in Now.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 1:09

On today's show, I'm very privileged to be joined by Kelly Tsea, the Chief Operating Officer of Curriculum Associates, and Curriculum Associates' goal is to empower teachers with tools, resources and research so they can help every learner grow to their personal best, and for more than 50 years, caa has worked with teachers to develop educational solutions that provide insight and put insight into their hands, help the tailor instruction to each learner's needs and save time with evidence-based solutions proven to work. Now, kelly has had an amazing career and spent much of her time in senior finance positions at Procter Gamble Iron Mountain and then started as Chief Financial Officer at Curriculum Associates four years ago. Then last year she was promoted to Chief Operating Officer and is currently attending to strengthening the customer experience, among other projects there, and I do not hesitate to say that Kelly is one of the most natural and talented leaders I've ever had the privilege to work with as a coach in my 27 years, so I wanna thank you for joining me today. Kelly, appreciate you coming onto the show.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 2:20

Thanks, David, so kind of you to say. I was trying to reflect back and I think we've been working together for almost five years now. I feel very grateful for all that I've learned from you.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 2:31

Oh, thank you, Kelly. I really appreciate it. Well, maybe we can start by just learning a little bit more about your background to becoming to the point you became COO of CA. But let's go back earlier in your career and think about how you started and thinking about some of the most seminal moments that may have shaped who you are today as a business leader. So if you could just share a little bit about your story and your early career and what kinda you think are those moments that sparked you towards leadership.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 3:04

Yeah, sure, great question. I actually I started my career as a chemical engineer so I went and I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do, but I loved math and science and I kinda steered towards engineering and study chemie. That's actually where I met my husband, so we're both a dorky chemical engineer. And we used to pass notes on a TI-85 calculator so pretty dorky.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 3:31

Yeah, we met back in college and I went off to work at Proctor Gamble and I started my career on the manufacturing plant floor and my job back then was to help solve issues in the plant, making it a little bit more efficient and productive, and solve hard problems with great people each and every day. And I loved that work. I loved being in the manufacturing plants. I learned a lot from the colleagues around me, learned about root cause analysis, learned about things about being proactive and making sure equipment and people were well trained, and I got some really great experience. Did that for a few years, decided that I wanted to go to business school. I got really interested in working on some initiatives while I was in product supply and I got really interested in the customer. I got interested in the customer in terms of why were they buying our products and at the time we were working on shampoo, so why were they buying in hair color, hair dye, and so why were they interested in it? Who were we marketing to? What kind of products were we making, how much would they charge for it? And I got really, really interested and decided to go back to business school and so I went back and studied part time, so a couple of days a week I went with some colleagues from product supply and at the time I was in Connecticut and we took turns driving into the city and learning at night. And after I completed that, I decided to get more involved on the business side and switched over to finance and accounting. And what I found there, it was more of the same. It was solving issues, it was working with great people trying to figure out a business plan, but it's from a very different lens. And so I went on within P&G. I had great mentorship, I had great opportunities to learn from people, great training and development. I spent time across three different sites. So I started Connecticut, I was in Cincinnati and then it brought me back to my roots, which is on the East Coast in Boston, where my husband and I both have a family on the East Coast, and I worked at Gillette for about nine years and in the finance area, and some of my roots did bring me back to product supply and thinking about the Gillette manufacturing strategies. I had so much fun and learned from such great colleagues, yeah, yeah, and I decided to switch over to Iron Mountain.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 6:10

At one point there was a cool opportunity there and they were working on transformation, the idea of transforming a business model and learning how to do that. I had a great CFO there who pulled me over and I had some great learnings for a couple of years. I was actually not looking for a role, but at the time it was COVID and if you were working in finance, you couldn't see in front of you. People didn't know how much cash is around, people were trying to save roles or making sure people were OK, checking on colleagues, and I got this call about this opportunity at Curriculum Associates, the maker of I Ready.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 6:53

I didn't really know about this industry. I knew about the hardcover books, the core curriculum, the books that we all put our paper bags on every year part of the school year but I got this really amazing opportunity to learn about this mission-driven company that's now impacting a third of the kids in the US, and the idea for me to be able to do the work I love work in finance, work with great people, but also have an impact and work with a conscious capital company that's really striving to support educators and kids and have a real impact in the world was very appealing, and so I made that leap in June of 2020 during COVID, and I never really looked back.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 7:40

Yeah, it's really beautiful. And notice also, when you go back to your early history in Proctor and Gamble, you're really interested in customer experience and here you are back in a new role as Chief Operating Officer with that being a primary focus. And I'm just curious, as you look back at those two roles and the connection of those two roles. I don't know if there is a connection there or not. It's just how it happened. But if you look at that issue of customer experience and what you're learning now in the tech industry about it, it's really it's industry specific and it isn't right Like what. Is it the heart of customer experience in your view?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 8:17

And what are the two things you try to drive for? That's a great question, I think. Always putting your customer at the forefront and trying to anticipate their needs anticipate what is going to in this case with curriculum associates it's around helping them save time in the classroom and giving them the tools to make them great, and being customer obsessed, like understanding everything about them that will help be in service of them. I find that really interesting and a way to proactively anticipate their needs. I just think it's a really hard problem to solve and something that really energizes me every day when I wake up.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 8:58

Yeah, customer obsessed, I like that. Yeah, I think that's exactly right, that exactly right. Now. I know that. You know as long as I've known you and one of the first things that you know came out of your mouth and we began to work together is you know how important it is to you build, to build strong teams and an empowering culture. What, what, how did that? How did that interest spark in you? Because you know there's a lot of seen, there's a lot of executives out there where that's not a top priority for them, for whatever reason, I'm not saying, but it's certainly become more so, but but there's there. What I'm noticing is there's a certain way that one's attention goes there and recognizes the importance of that. So I'd like to kind of get a sense of where did where did you first discover that was a spark for you and then maybe once you share that, so share a little bit about the approaches that you do to foster that kind of collaboration and that kind of culture in your organizations.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 9:55

Yeah, that's a good question. If I think about, from a business perspective, the most important things, I think of it in three lenses. I think about the people we serve externally students and educators. You know my former days at P&G. It was providing great products and getting you know, solving things for people. The Iron Mountain, it was about transforming and helping people unlock insights. So it's about the external impact you can have.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 10:24

Secondly, there's value creation, like where all these are businesses and need to be productive and efficient and whatnot. But a really important vector is the employee experience and thinking about creating an environment in which you're giving employees the right tools to succeed, creating a culture where people want to be there every day. They want to, they want to bring their best, they want to be their best and, you know, allowing them to work on the things that have the highest value. And if I think about from a team perspective, I think, first of all, it's always doing the right thing, always, always doing the right thing is at the core, and then creating the right team and the right culture. I think that's actually what produces the impact and the value creation, and focusing on having the right people in the right roles, empowering them, giving them the right, the right space to make decisions, helping them achieve things that maybe they didn't know was possible, and giving them all the right support.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 11:28

I really do believe in being transparent and direct with folks. I think that's how people learn. That's how I got that gift early on in my career, where I had great managers and bosses who gave me the direct feedback that may not have felt great in the moment, but certainly helped me be better and learn. And then just being relentlessly focused on the culture. I think that's really important, david.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 11:54

Well, I guess I would like to follow up on that. That comment you made about all the concrete comments you made about people and culture and look at, at a specific time in any of your jobs when you came may have been when you came into to CA, could have been in other roles, that Iron Mountain, other places where you had to come in and recalibrate things because you're now a new leader. In that situation and when you come back.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 12:24

I have an example that goes a kind of far back but it's something that's memorable for me it's actually when I was a first time manager and it was a lesson that I learned and I had. I was. I was super excited to have a team, my first team. I was pretty inexperienced and these team members were literally veterans in their roles, like real experts, knew the business really well, and I was coming in with very little knowledge of what they did and how they did it and I came in thinking that I had to know everything to be great manager. So I acted like I knew a lot. So I just was like I'll just show up and pretend like I know a lot, even though I didn't, and as a result of that, I was a little bit standoffish, you know it. It made me maybe feel a little bit cold and, needless to say, the team was very reluctant to let me into their circles and let me into their day to day, and I realized I did not have a very good strategy.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 13:26

Back then. I quickly realized that I had to earn their trust and the only way to do that that I knew how to do was to become very curious, to ask questions, ask about them as individuals, ask about their families or accomplishments, their interests outside of work. One was a professional bowler on the side and another one was a baseball, a baseball diehard. But I didn't know that because I wasn't curious, I didn't have a relationship. And then they began interacting with me more and I started becoming even more curious and work about their work and I approached my job more as a problem solver with them versus someone who had to have all the answers, and I quickly found like small wins, like ways to help them, and a few months later, a bigger project came for the whole team where we had to work collectively, and it was a good thing that we had at that point, real relationships and trust.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 14:27

Trust, the project was extremely difficult many late nights, weekend work, like one of those ones that are just a total grinds, and we made mistakes and learned along the way. But the but, because we knew each other and had built relationships, we were able to laugh, we were able to learn and the project was a huge success rolled up to the rest of the company. And this is a decade ago. But, as I reflect back, the only reason we were able to do great work together was because we had the trust and personal relationships and we were able to collaborate.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 14:59

So you know years have passed, but it was actually literally a month ago where some one of those team members was in town and reached out and, if I like, if I think about my reflection, I now really take the time to get to know people on a deep level and be curious about them and how to support them, and I think it was a pretty big learn for me as a team lead.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 15:26

Yeah, so there's this intersection of that you came to. It sounds like I don't know what to do, but something basic came to you, which is that sometimes we have to get back to like what does it mean to be in a relationship with people?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 15:41

That's right.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 15:43

And what does it mean to be connected to people? Well, I need to be curious about them and not just to be about what I'm trying to do with them. So how has that played out for you? As far as you said that now it's just the way I do things, so is it like it's just an autopilot that?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 16:01

can come into. Yeah, it's table space. I mean you gotta get to know people and also let them get to know you. You gotta share things about you and you don't have to share the whole world, but I think that's also important in building trust and relationships is doing your part as well.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 16:23

So it's not just about learning about them, it's also being a vulnerable and allowing them to see you as a human being beyond your role. Is that fair to say?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 16:29

I pride myself in trying to be approachable and vulnerable and I share my mistakes, and if I can learn from mistakes, I should teach others so they don't make the same mistake as well. So I'm pretty open with where things don't go well and, more importantly, my learnings.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 16:44

Yeah, well, I know that about you because I've talked to a number of your direct reports and I know that that's one of the things they say about you that you're real and authentic and they know you as human being and it makes a difference, makes a huge difference, yeah, so it's interesting that, as you look at how that impacts a team over time because it's not just you getting to know them is also encouraging others on the team to get to know each other. So what do you do in those situations? What do you find is some of the best ways for the team to kind of connect to each other, to foster relationships with each other? Because, as you know, if that relationship with you and your direct reports are important, you must also know your direct reports. Having relationships with each other is important. So what are some things that you do to encourage that?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 17:32

Yeah, I think building space and we're all busy going a million miles an hour, have lots of meetings on calendar, so at least once a quarter I try to build in time for space, whether it be a meeting or some sort of regular connection where it's not all about the work, it's about building space for other people to share leadership lessons or learn from each other or share an example. So just building in that space and time is really key. So I try to build in that time on some sort of regular cadence, because if you don't build it in, it just won't happen, and so I find you gotta just put it on calendar and honor it.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 18:15

Well, it's making it a priority and it's making it as an important element in building the team and recognizing and I think so many times you've got so many things. I just did a blog post on how we can train so many things. I just did a blog post on how we can drift away from priorities, drift away from what's important, and if you don't have those things top of mind and they're not embedded in the way that you operate, then they can be left off to the side right, because it's really easy to get. You have so much urgency in your role. That happens. They say many things come at you. Every day something new can come at you, and so keeping that top of mind is absolutely critical and you do that. So it's like you make sure that, okay, when you're attending to thinking about your direct report, you're attending to. When's the last time, or do we have that connection and you maintain it? Is that correct?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 19:14

That's right, that's exactly right. It's an ongoing nurturing of a relationship like we have with our family.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 19:21

Yeah, right, exactly, exactly. Well, and this is a thing I know that you coach girls basketball, right? Yes, I do, although I will say I've been coaching the same team.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 19:36

They were third graders and now they're high school. So I no longer visually a girls basketball. They've far exceeded my skill sets now, but it's been a really fun journey over the last six years with the same team.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 19:58

That's a lot of fun. That's a fun. Is there anything you relate to that experience versus your corporate experience and saying what is common about that experience? Because you're coaching your teams right, you're not coaching obviously not coaching third graders, that you're at your job, but there is this. Is there any commonalities that you say that you have found in coaching a girls team versus coaching your direct reports?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 20:22

if you'd say oh, that's interesting actually. Yeah, I haven't thought about that, but there are some similarities. My role as the coach of the basketball team and I'm a co-coach, but my role has been to help develop the girls as individuals skill sets, mindset on the courts, helping them be great teammates, helping them teach them how to lose and how to lose with grace and win with grace. There are lots of ups and downs over the years and tears.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 21:00

Sure, sure, sure.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 21:02

But also I view it from two aspects Like. One is I can always see the potential in those kids and helping them. They may not see it, may not feel it at the beginning of a season, but helping those girls stop and recognize the progress, celebrate the successes throughout the season, and we would have regular discussions like what are your? At the beginning of the season we pulled each teammate aside to one of your goals for the year. I mean imagine third graders all the way through eighth graders, but helping them define their goals and helping them work on them and checking on them over the year and fostering that collaboration and teamwork together. So I think there's a lot of things to be learned that are super applicable to the corporate world too.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 21:53

Yeah, because I'm sure that you've had a number of direct reports and you know, look, thinking about yourself, thinking about your mentors, all the way from Dr Gamble to the current day, seeing potential in you. Right that you, they saw in you and pulled it out of you and you've turned that around and I imagine that many times you're seeing more possibility for your directs and maybe sometimes they do right, That'd be fair to say.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 22:21

The best part about being a manager is being able to help and support people exceed their own expectations.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 22:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you've had some great winds along the way with that and really.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 22:35

I think I've been the lucky one. I'm the one that gets to learn from them as well.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 22:38

There's always a Well, that's the truth, right, yeah, that is the truth. Yeah, I mean, I learned so much from you and all my clients. You know I'm a much better coach because of them.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 22:49

It's been one of my. I actually thought once I finished business school I thought that I was done learning. I was like that's it no more tests, no more learning. I am done with learning. I think it's been the most interesting thing for me Over the past year. That's all I've done. I've been on a learning journey and I think it's also been the thing that's made me feel so fulfilled is the constant learning journey learning new things, learning new skills, diving into different industries. I recently went to a sales boot camp, and so I think that's actually the secrets that no one tells you when you're younger like that. Life is about learning.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 23:40

It never stops. And then when you think it stops I think some of the people that I've seen in corporate world when they think it stops and they become the expert, that's when it can really be a stopper. When you're effective, this is a leader, right? If you're not thinking that you there's something to learn, you kind of lose humility. And then when you lose I think you know the best leaders that I've worked with have and I include you in that have some humility and put themselves and that's something that I see you do like you put yourself in new situations, even though you know it's like what I call, what my fiance therapist calls, opposite action.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 24:21

Right, sometimes you have to do that which we do, that our ego or our old, our condition structure doesn't want to do, because we know stepping into that new situation is going to open something up for us that could not. We don't even know what the gift is until we step into it. Right, right, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're doing that. A lot in your new role too, you've been doing that a lot over the last year.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 24:45

Thank you, yeah, yeah, well, let's. I want to turn to the conversation around to. You know the last few years and you know the new. We feel like we're. I feel like we're in a new business landscape and a new kind of world that's still trying to figure itself out A lot of unexpected obstacles, especially post COVID, and I wanted to see if you could share to one new challenge that's emerged post pandemic that you've had to address and what you're doing to address that challenge. Like, as we've moved beyond and we're moving beyond the pandemic, but the world still has a little bit, a lot of insanity in it right now. But what if you, what if you? Would you say it was be one challenge you've had to face with COVID?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 25:28

Yeah, I think this is one that we're all facing together. So maybe, david, you have some good tips for me on this one. But spending time in person with colleagues, the idea of the office space and what it represented before, and the things that we're missing from not being together. So I think it is a challenge. We've all adapted to new ways of working. We know we can be working remote, we know we can be effective, but there are a lot of things we're missing. I think about. You know more junior people who I benefited from as a junior person years ago. I benefited from mentorship and learning from people around me in person, and it's just so hard to replicate that today. There are slack channels not a lot of ways to connect but you can't just get up and go talk to someone and get an idea or have that interaction that you get a good laugh or whatever it is. So that's the thing that's very much on my mind is how do we bring you know?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 26:25

many of us are not in an office or with colleagues, day in and day out, and how do we replicate that connection that feels so important and necessary to build great teams and to build, you know, longstanding relationships across the board?

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 26:44

Yeah, there's no doubt that the lockdowns and everything that we went through caused a new way of operating, and not just that, it created an opportunity for people to work remotely, which is, in a certain way, a gift, right, because then you could, it could reduce stress to a certain degree because you're able to be in your own home and attend to things and still get your job done. It is also challenging for managers to know what's going on, and it's a new way you have to build, it's a new operation of building accountability around that, and how do we make sure we feel comfortable with that, you know. But I also think that we've and I was just I'm working with a sales leader now who, you know, even her VPs are not out with the salespeople. They got out of the habit of being out in the field and they're having to go back to. We got to be out in the field and be strategic about it, right, and I think it's a matter of you know to your point.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 27:49

I think we're all starting to figure this out, but human beings are meant to be in physical. They work better when they're in physical proximity and connection. There's no doubt about that. That you know. If you look at us as a species, we do better when we're in physical proximity than when we're not. We figured that out. We've done amazing jobs to figure out how to do things virtually right. But I think it's a matter of like people being strategic about that and, like I know, you're doing that in certain ways, like you know let's, you know connecting with people to go for a walk.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 28:25

Yeah, go for a walk, go for a hike with people, but I do miss.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 28:29

I do miss being in an environment on a regular basis and trying to think about.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 28:34

You know how we do that a little bit more often.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 28:37

Yeah, and there's a resistance in a certain way for the employee population to come back into that, into that flow as well, understandably. But I think it's a matter. This is what organizations are all grappling with now and you know how do we kind of create that opportunity to work together and make that I don't know, there's retreats and things like that, but still not the same as day-to-day experience.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 28:59

So I miss it.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 29:00

It's good, yeah, yeah, so it's a matter of figure.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 29:04

We have to all figure that out. And how do we enroll people back into that and a certain pattern that allows them to still have the hybrid model but still be together? It's a work in progress and related to this because a lot of that that ability to work virtually did create more balanced life, possibly, but that is also a critical issue that you have to face as a leader, right, because we've also seen increasing levels of burnout in the executive rags and throughout organizations and a certain way being on all the time. These virtual reality is almost created of being on all the time thing, like you should now be just available on Slack, or you should be like be able to, you know, whatever. So how do you create harmony between your personal responsibilities and the desire to create value? And that you know, because you get filled up with passion for what you're doing and, at the same time, you have to take care of personal wellbeing, because if you don't take care of the physical experience, at a certain point, it stops working as well, right?

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 30:13

Yeah so what are some of the strategies that some of the strategies that you've engaged to take care of your wellbeing?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 30:22

Yeah, that's a good question. Well, first of all, I like how you're phrasing it. It's about harmony, because a lot of people would ask me what do you do around work-life balance? And if you ask me that question, I would tell you don't believe in work-life balance because there's no perfect balance at any moment. But I do believe in harmony and I do believe in the resilience loop. So finding reinforcing behaviors that can bring you more joy and energy, and finding those.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 30:52

I had a colleague this is a long time ago. I was actually a boss and this person told me Kelly, if you don't set your own boundaries for work, how can you expect anyone else to respect them? So you first have to set your own boundaries and then you have to show others that you respect them, and that's a work in progress For me, this idea of being very clear during a period of time, whether that's three or four months. I intentionally reset every three to four months to think about what's most important to me over the next period of time, and then, once I define those, I relentlessly try to respect them, and I'm not always perfect at that.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 31:47

But I'll give you an example. There was a period earlier this year when I was shifting roles and it was really important that I got out and traveled and got into classrooms and spent time with people and learned to really understand the customer experience. And I did that relentlessly. I got to 22 states in a really short period of time and but then I hit pause and I have a freshman in high school this year and it's really important to me that I'm there to support her during her transition to high school. It's a big deal you couldn't pay me any amount of money to go back to high school.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 32:22

There's no, yeah, and send me to there.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 32:25

And so, but that's my priority right now and I'm reluctant to protecting my time. I'm getting to games you know soccer games whenever I can, but for me, the balance and the harmony really comes from reinforcing things that bring me energy and work, joy and personal joy, and so being with my family, trying to be present when I've a lot of that time on the weekends or what night for hiking and biking or walks or anything that brings vitamin D, and I can be with my kids, family and at work, making sure that I'm present for when the times I've blocked there to make sure I can bring my best, and trying to set those boundaries. Now does that mean that sometimes I'm working at 10 o'clock at night or that I'm late for a soccer game or whatnot? It is that harmony, but making sure I check in every few months to make sure it's still working is something that one of the practices and mindsets that I'm trying to do on a more regular basis. But it feels like a work. It feels like a endless work in progress. David.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 33:35

Yeah, well, it is. It is, and we have this idea and I think even I've woken up to this over the last several years that there's some model we can follow or some set of principles we can follow. We love our books, our ideas and our thoughts, and they have their tips and tricks and the hacks that we can do and the things that we should be focusing on. At the end of the day. We're figuring that out moment by moment and day by day, aren't we? And if you say I'm going to cut off at five o'clock and that's it for the day, you make that decision, well, that doesn't work very well when you have demands that you have, and sometimes you do have to work later or you have a busy week.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 34:25

To me, the challenge is making sure that I don't get in a pattern, because I think it's easier to get in a pattern of go, go, go, then get in a stop and take a break. There can be a motor. I know when your motors get going, it's hard to slow you down because you're so engaged and we can sometimes forget about our physical experience and our other relationships just because of that. So it is at the core of it is being attentive and self-aware of your own experience.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 35:03

That's right, trying to be in tune and knowing when you're at a point, or knowing when you're going through a tough period and knowing yourself well enough when you need to pause and put your own officer mask on first.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 35:15

Yeah, and it goes back to you making doing the right thing. So there's a certain way in which you've gotten that in your experience and your physical experience, or however you've processed that that at some point there's a decision point and the right thing to do is take care of yourself. That is also a decision point. The other thing about these times that we're in is that uncertainty, ambiguity, a bit of chaos has emerged all around us. I'm curious is that something that's affected you, and how do you see leadership and the growth of leadership as necessary? This is in that whole thing. In other words, where do you find your center in that? How do you recalibrate to center when you feel like the world is spinning around you? It could be just a busy project you're on and your work and the development surrounding around that.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 36:22

Yeah, for me, I think it's knowing myself well enough of what I need to pull up and just do a check-in Checking. How often do we do a check-in with ourselves? I have learned that it's not perfect, but I think it's something you actually taught me, David, which is, during the chaos, during the challenges, the uncertainty, focusing on knowing your purpose and focusing on your purpose and realizing that that's actually the most important thing is remembering why you're doing what you're doing, Because there are ups and downs all the time. There are failures, there are mistakes, there are things that are out of your control, there are things in your control that may not have gone the way you planned. I think just focusing on the things that matter most to you and you're knowing what you uniquely bring and the things that are really related to your purpose, I think are the things that help me get better, help me realize what's most important.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 37:25

How do you stay connected to that? So, is it something that you do as a practice or is it something that you just come back to when you feel a certain kind of maybe you're losing center or you're feeling unfocused, or whatever? What is it? How do you know when to connect to purpose and how do you come back to?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 37:46

that that's a great question. I know you're encouraging me to meditate more, but it's just having a hard time getting into that.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 37:55

But I think for me it's about when I really recognize that it's when I run out of time in the day to do the things that I love or that are most important. So I think for me I can see the signs of like well, I'm not sleeping as much or not getting to the gym or doing like the things that really bring me that energy to bring that resilience loop, and so when that feels out of check, that's when I know that I got to pause and maybe rethink things.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 38:23

And there's a kind of a reset button in you that you hit and you know it's time to kind of hit it, Kind of thing.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 38:28

Yeah, that's right.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 38:32

So if you were to, this is kind of going in another direction a little bit, but if you were to, you saw somebody that's getting into a new executive role. They're moving from manager into maybe a director of VP role and you wanted to tell them three things to keep in mind as they move into it, because that's a different transition, right, you're moving into a completely different territory of operating. Any suggestions you would have for people that are moving into that?

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 39:00

Yeah, that's a good question.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 39:03

I think the first thing for me is, during any transition whether it's a company or new role, executive role or not, it's really I always try to get really organized at the beginning in terms of some of the fundamentals, like, as you're shifting to something new, make sure that you are building relationships and building trust. It goes back to what we were talking about before. I've never forgotten that. Make sure you are building trust with people. Be very curious.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 39:36

You likely have lots of experience that you're bringing with you and it's probably why you've been appointed to this different position or you've got good insights and experience, but that's really important. So you want to keep all that. But you've got to be really open-minded and curious about the new space you're getting into, asking lots of questions, understanding the why of things. This goes back to also, I remember that something that really stuck with me is the first 90 days of something and you want to get in some small wins, really small, but find a way to help a colleague go solve a small problem, really listen to someone to understand the challenge. But I think it's about building relationships, being really curious and open-minded, not going in with.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 40:25

I have a 10-point plan and I'm going to go implement it Go find out what's going to work, the things you think may not work, depending on the culture or the business model. You're going to find new things that you didn't know, and if you don't have come in with an open mind, you're going to miss those opportunities and your plan probably won't go well. And then try to get early wins in Try to help somebody solve something.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 40:52

Yeah, well, that's so true, because I think sometimes people feel the pressure of all of something get this title and they've got to perform and they dealt with themselves as a service when they try to push that right Rather than stepping back and going back into what you said. Like you talked about is number one be back in the learner mode, be curious, understand your boss's expectations, understand what's going on with how the team is performing against those, getting to know people personally and understanding what floats their boat and, as you said, looking for ways you could be helpful in any way and have those early wins.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 41:31

Yeah, for me it's about service leadership, right.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 41:33

Yeah.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 41:34

How can you serve your team, how can you serve your colleagues, how can you serve your stakeholders and really bringing that service leadership mindset.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 41:43

That's really well said. I think that that is the highest form of leadership, I think, is realizing that while you're serving results, you're also serving your team, versus them serving you, just serving you right. So if you understand that, it actually improves, as you say, the people and culture that you have. So, yeah, good. Well, I just wanted to see if you had anything else you wanted to wrap up with. Is there anything else you'd like to share about rising in the executive realm? Yeah, we covered a lot of ground, that's for sure.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 42:16

Well, you did, you did, I think the other piece of advice that I got that was really great. Earlier on my career I was a runner. I have a kind of a bum hamstring now but I had a boss that pulled me aside because I did feel like, oh, all this energy and passion, I want to drive results, drive results, get stuff done, and I think that's great and it's something that's still important to me. But I got advice from a former mentor that you told me that this is a long journey. This is a journey. It's not a sprint and in these sprints you can burn out. And so really be thinking about the long term, your whole career, as a journey of learning and contributing and being a great business partner and being a great manager and teammate, and think about it in the long term. Otherwise, if you're chasing titles and you're chasing things all the time, you'll probably go be happy in the end. So really think about it as a career journey.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 43:17

Yeah, I really like what you just said and I see a lot of people focusing on roles, focusing on the next step up, and then chain and the ladder, and I find that people that are well, I'm just going to take today and do the best job I can to add value with the people I'm talking to today and they stack days like that. They tend to be promoted If they're adding a lot of value. They just tend to tend to start shining and people see that and the people that focus on moving up tend to create. I don't know if it does. I mean you have actually a little ding on, a subtle ding on trust with them. There can be a subtle difficulty in trusting your intentions, not because they're doing anything wrong, but because their intention is to see what's next, and so I think that's really well said.

Kelly Sia, COO of Curriculum Associates: 44:08

Well, I think you think it's true. You bring up a really good point, which is you're actually your best when you're in the moment and you are fully present. And so remembering it's not about what's next, what's next, but really being in the moment has really helped me in focusing on being my best at that very second.

David Craig Utts - The Resident Leadership Guy: 44:27

Yeah, absolutely well said. Well, I really want to thank you for taking the time out of your busy day, kelly, to join me on the podcast today is really appreciative to have you, and I want to thank everybody for tuning in today to Unphased Under Fire. I hope you found this enriching conversation helpful to you and we look forward to seeing you back again on Unphased Under Fire in our next episode. Thanks for joining us and have a great rest of your day, thank you.