The Evolution of Leadership Excellence with Insight from Vinay Kumar

Introduction: 0:17

Welcome to Unfazed Under Fire, a podcast that supports executives to deepen their impact and resiliency in an increasingly chaotic and uncertain world. Our mission facilitates the growth of enlightened leaders who build empowering, high-performing cultures that unify great talent and turn profound visions into reality. Now, tuning into your needs, here's your host and moderator, seasoned executive coach and the resilient leadership guy, David Craig-Utts.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 0:48

So welcome back to Unfazed Under Fire. I'm David Craig-Utts, the resilient leadership guy, your host and moderator for the show. Now, this show aims to support executives in strengthening their impact as leaders and their resilience so that they can thrive in today's highly uncertain, disruptive and chaotic world that we live in. This show is a stand for creating and bringing forward breakthroughs in how we develop leaders and organizational cultures, with the goal of providing uplifting, rewarding work experiences for your employees and while also igniting the best in them in service to the greater good, and to create value through their contributions. In service to the greater good and to create value through their contributions. Now, this desire for an evolution in leadership development is based on an emerging body of research that human beings have all the resourcefulness they need already within them to rise above and address the challenges we're facing today, and to be able to do so with grace. Now, the first step to tapping into this inner resourcefulness, which is our birthright to claim, comes from by recognizing that leading and living are inside out journeys. This means that if an executive genuinely desires to have positive impact on the world around them, they must first realize what they need to do is bring out the best version of themselves, because that is the foundation for outer impact. They desire to do is bring out the best version of themselves, because that is the foundation for outer impact they desire to have on their organization and those they lead. And once they gain such self-mastery, it sets the stage for powerfully leading others. As I just said, and without the self-mastery, especially in the times we're in, leading at best is a confusing endeavor.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 2:26

Now, today we're joined by a special guest and a colleague, vinay Kumar, and it is long overdue to have him on the show. So welcome, vinay, to the show. Glad to have you. Yeah, and preparing for this podcast, I realized that we have many intersections where we meet. The first example is that you and I were both in the campus at University of Maryland at the same time. I don't know if you realize that, of course, I was in psychology undergrad and you were in chemical engineering. I actually don't think chemical engineering and psychology buildings are that far apart. It was around the student union, wasn't it? Wasn't it close there?

Vinay Kumar: 3:03

Pretty darn close. Yeah, it was very close to each other.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 3:07

Yeah, but we probably passed each other and didn't realize you know that we were going to run into each other again someday. But once you graduated from there, you spent the next 10 years in engineering positions at Gulf Oil and the EPA. And then you worked as a cone owner and partner at GRC Direct for 18 years, which provided graphic design, printing and direct mailing services, and I was in the office products industry, which was kind of butted up against that a little bit similar timing. But you work, you know. You served a myriad of organizations and this is where it looks like your career kind of turned in a new direction, where you were tasked with training their external sales for your external sales force and customer service representatives, and you also focused on a strategy, marketing campaigns and strategies to acquire, retain customers, and you did a pretty good job, it seems like, over that 18 years, because your direct revenue grew by 28 fold. So that's pretty impressive. And after a couple of short, other short term roles, you found yourself at TioCo Corporation. Am I pronouncing?

Vinay Kumar: 4:09

that right. That's correct.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 4:11

Right, yeah, and that really integrated your engineering, your training and your coaching background and you supported IT and engineering leaders and managers and high potentials to become more effective in their personal and professional lives, which must have been very rewarding.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 4:26

And during that time you also co-wrote the book, the Chalmers Brothers the Language and Pursuit of Leadership Excellence, which, I insist, all my clients read. It's a must read for my clients, so it's great. I appreciate the effort you and Chalmers put into that and you might know that I had Chalmers on the show this time last year about this time, so getting his writing partner in today. And also during that time at Tioko, you became certified in a number of assessment, leadership assessments, including the Leadership Circle Profile, and I'm also part of that community another intersection and I see the Leadership Circle Profile as the bellwether of all leadership assessments in the market today and, as you're aware, I actually had the creator of it on my show earlier this year. So again, vinay, you're bringing it all together today. You're integrating my show very well, good to be with you. Yeah, now I think you know, but wait, there's more yeah.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 5:22

Now I think you know, but wait, there's more Fogg. You're still at DECO. You settled in to become a full-time executive coach, which you are now. In addition to having a robust executive coaching practice, you serve on the adjunct faculty of Georgetown Executive and Leadership Coaching Program and also are on the faculty of Leadership Circle and are a key leader in that community right now and we appreciate that work. And finally, you live in beautiful Northern Virginia with your wife Suda, and you're a father of two beautiful daughters. So that's a pretty full life. I hope I got all that right.

Vinay Kumar: 6:01

Fantastic. I couldn't have said it better. David, Thank you so much.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 6:05

Is there anything else you'd like to add?

Vinay Kumar: 6:08

It's very good to be in this conversation with you, david. As you know, I'm passionate about this work and supporting leaders and just you know you and I go back so many years and good to see the intersections and for me just a privilege and a joy to be in this conversation with you. Thank you for having me.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 6:23

Yeah, it's great. Well, you know, as I do with most of my first-time guests, I'd like to have you talk a little bit of your journey in your own words. I mean, I just did a linear version of that, but I'd like to know how a chemical engineer has morphed into a seasoned executive coach at the forefront of leadership development, and what's most passionate about that, what's your most passionate about? So you tell me a little bit about how, along that journey, what happened within you that led you to this point, and then, what are you most passionate about in your work today?

Vinay Kumar: 7:00

That's a great question, david. So, as you know, I have a technical background, went through life and had a great career. This is 2008 when I left the business. I left because the business was a lot of joy for me, I enjoyed it and I can say I was good at it. Challenges with any business relationships or partnerships, we had a good run, but there were some challenges and I think I had some growing up to do as well.

Vinay Kumar: 7:28

So I left the business and I was thinking I'll figure out what's next for me pretty easily. Well, I could get things intellectually, but I wasn't able to move forward. There was somebody else calling me and I had this epiphany, this thought in my head that why am I not able to move forward at this point? And I realized I keep trying to change things out there and perhaps it's time for me to turn inwards. Something in here has to change. So that's my inner journey, and also just many of my clients who knew me. They said Vinay, have you ever thought about coaching? I'm like what is that? I didn't know what it was, but it was their urging and their suggestions. I began to explore and I said you know, this is what I've been doing all my life I didn't know there's such a thing as coaching, and it took me on my path both to inner development and to supporting others right. So that's how I got into this path here.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 8:18

Yeah, and I might've missed this when did that inner spark happen At the point of the career that I spoke about it? What point was that?

Vinay Kumar: 8:25

When did that inner spark happen, at the point of the career that I spoke about it? What point was that? This was around? I left in 2008, I think about probably around 2009.

Vinay Kumar: 8:33

As we talk a lot, we go through transitions, we use the metaphor dark lakes or in the woods. I was in that state, quite lost, at that point in time, and that's when I had this realization of something is amiss. I need to go within and look at myself and see how I'm showing up and what needs to change. That's when my inner journey began and the awakening we can call it the inner development and that was my turning point, david, at that point in time, yeah, yeah.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 9:01

And is that before you met Chalmers and the leadership that was well before the leadership circle and Chalmers, or is that around the same time?

Vinay Kumar: 9:08

I think that the insight, that awareness, began to happen well before that. And then, as they say, you know, the teachers appear when the student is ready. That's right, you know, it's. Chalmers showed up, Bob Anderson showed up his book and Bill Adams and all that work began to show up. And that work really began to speak to me. I read Covey's book again and all that stuff made sense in a way that it would not have made sense earlier to me. It really began to speak to me at that point, David.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 9:35

Well, and it's kind of like I think all of us that support executives on this same journey and I can really relate to well, there's a couple of times in my journey when I felt kind of lost. But I mean, I mean and I have a friend, you know that I just had on the show last time Dan Blackburn wrote a book Lost and Found and he said, yeah, you know you, you know you get lost, so you can find what you really need to find, right, that's a lot of what it's all about. It's that at the time it doesn't feel good. Then this is fairly. It's confusing time and challenging time, but it doesn't last forever and, as you say, usually if you're earnestly seeking that, you will find what you need to find to take you to the next step. That's amazing thing about life, right?

Vinay Kumar: 10:20

Yeah, resilient and those are. I think those are course corrections. Look at them in hindsight. I don't know if I wish to go through that again, but looking back, that was the best yeah yeah, we're happy those times are over and we've reaped the benefits from them. We don't necessarily have to live them over again. Exactly exactly.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 10:40

I'd like to start with the book you wrote with Chalmers. I'd love, first of all, I'd like, to know how you met Chalmers, how you two met, and then what was the impetus in those conversations to spark co-creating that book together, because this is what a lot of my clients listen to these, so I always preach the gospel. They've got to read that book and we use it, so that's also a background for this too Great question.

Vinay Kumar: 11:08

So when I was in my Georgetown coaching program, one of the books we were using is called Language and the Pursuit of Happiness and I'm reading this book and Chalmers is talking about this. Line really struck with me. It said event does not equal explanation. And I'm like what is he talking about? Because, as my engineer of mind would say, we look at things from different perspectives. Like if you look at a square or a round, it looks different.

Vinay Kumar: 11:35

But the idea that we make different meaning, I had not gotten that before and I realized, wow, the action that we take is not a function of what's happening out there, it's a function of the stories I make, of the meaning I make. And I realized when I look at my life in the back, things didn't work and there were times things didn't work and when it wasn't working it was not the situation, it was the meaning I was making of it, the interpretation. And I didn't know that I was acting from the interpretation, making up with the interpretation, and I didn't know that I was acting from the interpretation, not looking at the interpretation. That was an awakening for me. That was a big awakening, saying, oh my god what is happening out there.

Vinay Kumar: 12:13

I have a view, I have a perspective, I have a meaning and I can author different meanings, and different meanings enable different actions and different outcomes. That was like a revelation. So the practice has been whenever I'm triggered, and particularly different actions and different outcomes. That was like a revelation. So for me, the practice has been whenever I'm triggered and particularly slow down, look at what's happening and say how else can I look at the situation? And that's the thing changer. And that was my awakening. And I said to Chambra, I said I reached out to him, I said, chambra, tell me how I apply this in my life. I get so much deep content. Then we started creating a SOAR program together. You know, we connected, we created a program and, as they say, the rest is history. Then we started another book, follow-on book, with more content, framing the leadership in a business context. That's how it all unfolded, david.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 13:02

Yeah, it's a beautiful piece of work, a very important piece of work. It's so funny because I think you know there's a nurse, not just Martina, I'm not sure I remember her name, but her quote is I'll make sure that the person's name is below on this podcast but she talked about how human beings don't have the brain, the size of brain to actually see reality as it is, that we need a skyscraper in our head to actually see reality as it is. So we've been given an interpretive brain that allows us to sense it and, of course, as you're pointing to, the upside of that is we can move around, get things done, engage in relationships pretty effectively. The downside is is sometimes we believe what that interpretation is telling us and that could have various side effects that aren't always the post positive Right. So, and this points to like what you were talking about, you know, in the book with charmers it's so gold because it points to this, and you know the chapter in assessments is one of the favorite ones I talk to my clients about.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 14:11

And and because you know, as as you point in the book and very clearly, that only one of the leaders primary jobs is facilitating conversations around what matters most and generating commitments that advance what's most important, right? That's what we're here to do. In fact, I tell my you know many of my leaders that you know that's what you're primarily paid for Above a certain pay grade. You're paid to have conversations, and I'm sure you've said something similar to your clients and you have to learn how to be masterful at them. Yet it's easier said than done, right, right? So, in your mind, what makes it so challenging to have effective conversations? I mean part of it, what you may be intimated with the interpretation, and what do you think a leader has to keep their focus on to be increasingly masterful in having effective conversations?

Vinay Kumar: 14:57

Yeah, you know, conversations are so challenging. Sometimes I'm amazed how anything works. What do I mean by that? I mean, what I alluded to is that we live in an interpretive world. So we, you know sound waves, we hear certain things, but we make interpretation, make meaning out of that, and sometimes it's powerful, sometimes it's unpowerful, and the thing is we're not even aware of it. Interpretation has us. We don't have the interpretation, and we either respond or we react.

Vinay Kumar: 15:25

I think it's lack of us. We don't have the interpretation and we either respond or we react. I think it's lack of awareness. We're not aware that conversations create and generate all our outcomes, our relationships, our identities, our results, validated, validated. It's a lack of awareness because if we're not aware of it, we have no choice.

Vinay Kumar: 15:44

Then there's moods play into this. What mood am I in will determine and impact how I'm listening to something, listening meaning my active interpretation, um, all those things I think are going on here and and the same words have different meaning for different people at different times. So there's so many, so much room for interpretation, or rather I should say so much room for misinterpretation, that I'm amazed how anything works sometimes right. So I think the notion of conversation is creative in general and also we're not aware that words create and generate. Words are powerful. So becoming intentional about our word choices is critical, especially in leadership, because our words carry so much weight. What we say and how we say it, it is our toolbox, it is our toolkit and leaders is our language and our conversations. It's absolutely critical and to become aware that we have the creative power at the tip of our tongues, it's quite an awakening. It's like wow, this is powerful, I can use it more masterfully, more skillfully.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 16:43

And you just pointed to something powerful. I can use it more masterfully, more skillfully. And you just pointed to something I think you know one of the beliefs that Leadership Circle coaches and those that are trained in ontology of languages I think is the fundamental coaching school of them all right is the ontology school you know is strongly aligned with increasing self-awareness as a core competency At the most fundamental level. How do you define what self-awareness as a core competency At the most fundamental level? How do you define what self-awareness is and is self-awareness something one develops or discovers? That's kind of I thought it.

Vinay Kumar: 17:14

It's a good question. How do we define self-awareness? I guess what comes to mind for me at this point in time, if I think about this, is being aware of how my thinking, my feeling, my moods and emotions are influencing, or my interpretations are influencing my actions, and all those actions are creating outcomes. Am I aware of the stories my mind is making up? Am I aware of my mood and the mood I'm living in? Am I aware of? Am I in a reactive state? Am I in a creative state? Because if I'm aware of what's going on within me, then I can be more purposeful and more intentional about offering more powerful interpretations, being more intentional about what I'm saying and what I'm creating.

Vinay Kumar: 18:00

I think it's about, you know, in our book we call it the big eye Looking at us looking at ourselves, right Me, looking at the way I'm looking at things, If I'm conscious of it now, I'm a choice. Now how do we develop it? I think it's a combination. I think one is reflection being aware of what I'm doing, what I'm saying, what I'm thinking and what it's creating as I'm taking action in the world. One eye is out there, the other eye is on me, so I think it's something to cultivate reflection. Others, I think we get feedback from others around us, because we all have areas of brilliance. We have areas of blind spot, things that we can't see, that's for sure.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 18:40

We're both married, we know we have blind spots, right.

Vinay Kumar: 18:45

I get plenty of feedback. Yeah, we're both married, we know we have we're both married.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 18:48

We know we have blind spots right, so that's very good yeah, so that's a yeah and relationship is all.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 18:56

Seriously, it is through a relationship that so much gets revealed. When we care about the relationship, you know, do I? The question is, do I care more about the habit that I engage in having conversation and do I care more about the relationship and being in relationship, which may mean I need to change a habit of communicating to work, make this relationship work better? And we have to determine and I mean, as a leader of direct reports, you have to do the same thing Because whether you look at Myers-Briggs or DISC or the Enneagram, there's different styles that are going to rub us the wrong way, our conditioning the wrong way, and we have to be attuned to that and recognize that and learn how to be curious. I mean, that's a key point, right? Absolutely yeah. And you had some other fundamental claims in that book that I wanted to just talk off of, because I spoke to Chalmers about this too. I'm curious about your response to it.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 19:47

Those claims are you cannot change another human being, right? We're not hermits. We do things with and through others, right? So if I was, you know, as I always say to my executives in chess, business would be easy without the people, wouldn't it? But that's a glib way of saying that. Right, you have to. You have to learn how to work with others and through others. If you do what you always did, you get what you always got. You always have a choice. You're always a choice how you see things matters. Change is part of life. Get used to it, it's constant. So as you look back at those I don't know if that was in the pursuit of happiness that were brought forward or something you and Chalmers talked about what had you that showed up right at the beginning of the book? Yeah, so what was what about? Those six elements is so important to you? And and what do you think? How are they relevant to being a senior executive?

Vinay Kumar: 20:45

Well, first of all, they're all interconnected, right, in my view, they're all interconnected. You know, I can be aware of how I'm looking at things. I can be aware that change is constant. I can look at if I always do what I always do, I always get what I want, what I always got, and I can choose at that point, the idea of choice, I can choose to change that. Now, if I try to change that you know you talk about inner game runs the outer game, right? So I can choose to take a look at myself while I'm showing up, what am I doing, how am I contributing to that, and choose to change that.

Vinay Kumar: 21:13

So, if you look at leadership, right, leaders are taking action to create outcomes. But if you look at it, where are the actions coming from? They're coming from their way of being, their lived experiences, their beliefs, their values, the moods and emotions they're in, how they value it, how they interpret things that are happening out there. Do they see opportunities or do they see problems? Do they see goodness? Do they see what do they see? And, based on that, they take action to create the outcomes. So leaders are charged with creating outcomes, qualitative and quantitative, and we realize we take action, but as leaders, we have to also take a look at us yeah.

Vinay Kumar: 21:50

And if I'm not getting the result I want, can I look at it differently so I can move forward and create what I want? So I think it applies to leaders and I think we're all leaders in our lives.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 21:59

So to me it's a human Absolutely.

Vinay Kumar: 22:00

This is human.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 22:02

Well, I mean, I think, point back to my introduction about self-mastery. That's, ultimately, we have to learn. You know, as Aristotle and Plato and all of them said, the most important thing is to get to know yourself. Why did they say that that's the most important thing? Because the treasure is inside us and the recognition of both what we desire in life, what we want to create around us, but also the very things that may support or go against that. And we have to. If we don't understand that and we're on kind of the autopilot you were talking about before you hit the wall and went into that moment of questioning, um, I think life tends to smack us around until we we get that right, smack us around and yeah, and you were talking about you know, we have Jody about being married, right?

Vinay Kumar: 22:49

I also heard this line. Our children are experts in pointing out our limitations, right? So we've got this right. And now where was I going with this? You know, end of the day, all we have any control over David is ourselves Our thoughts, our feelings, our emotions, our beliefs, all these things, our behaviors. That's all we control. And there's an old saying that everything changes when we do, whether it's coming to dominate our lives, whether it's working or not working. So ultimately, it all begins with us, or each of us internally.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 23:23

Yeah, that's so well said and so true, and I think you know, I have to admit, you know, in my early days of doing this work, and even in the process of my own development whether it was spiritual development or personal development I heard that a lot and I didn't really trust it. But as I did the work, I saw that there, that is absolutely true. I feel more free and happy and content today than I ever did. Not that I don't still have work to do, but it's because of the work, internal work. It has nothing to do with what I've obtained on the outside. What happens on the outside is then drawn to me more robustly and abundantly, I find, as I'm clearing up the clutter inside. You know so that's so true.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 24:10

Now, just to take a little bit of a turn. You know, Vinay, we're also witnessing some insane times. The pace of change and at times, the chaotic nature of events is unprecedented. It seems like every day something new is happening that is putting us back on our heels a little bit, or can, if we pay attention, in a certain way, right. We also seem to be facing what feels like a falling apart of some traditional values and where, in a certain way, it almost even feels like our own government is failing to serve those who elected them and more unelected people are making decisions in secret that affect us. All that kind of stuff is going on. And I'm not trying to get political, that's not my point, so you'll be relieved of that, I'm sure.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 24:51

But as an expert in leadership, how do we find those willing to stand up against what's happening and reunite us and reconnect to? You know, I think the founders' vision of this country is still amazing. Liberty and justice for all is something I'd sign up for every day. And again, I'm not talking politics, but rather, if we look at the principles of leadership, let's just keep it there. The highest expression is servant leadership, right, you know, where are these leaders and why do we believe? Why do you? Do you see them visible now? And if so, where are they? Where are you seeing that sense of servant leadership showing up? Maybe I have a blindness, so I mean I am. I could say I have my answer to that question and we can talk about it, but where do you see the servant leaderships and give us some rays of hope that that's showing up?

Vinay Kumar: 25:48

Well, I think about this reason. All around us, david, I'm speaking one right now On the screen. I see one right now. You see a need, you see a way of creating a better world. You took on this podcast, this show that you have created out of nothing, and here it is, it's manifested. You're giving your life energy to bring you know, to have these conversations, to create the possibility of a better future. So, right here is the leader. Right here, david, I'm talking to you.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 26:17

Right now, you're talking to my wife. Oh, very kind, thank you.

Vinay Kumar: 26:19

Right. I mean you're bringing something. You brought something into existence out of nothing. You manifested it to create a better world. You're creating ripples out here. I look at my neighbors, I look at my clients that are showing up every day trying to make better organizations, whether it's public sector or private sector. They show up every day. They do the work they need to do. They invest in their growth and development. I think about pebbles in a pond. Each of these are pebbles in a pond. They create ripples and that ripples are going to travel outwards and have an impact. Now we can focus on those or we can focus on there Maybe not so great leaders.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 26:53

Well, you know, we're all evolving.

Vinay Kumar: 26:57

We're on this human journey and we're at different stages of development and we are where we are. Let's focus on the goodness and let's keep really multiplying that and over time it's just going to get better and better. So I see leaders all around me, david I yeah, that's great I was hoping you'd say that.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 27:13

So I mean, I mean, I really I think that was a really beautiful answer. I mean in and first of all, what I hear you saying. You know it starts with each of us and it goes back to it's my I'm respond, I could only be responsible for my attitudes, my behaviors, my habits, the way I engage, how I learn, how to work with my moods and emotions in a compassionate and thoughtful way, how I bring myself into a conversation, even if it's in the grocery store, with somebody next to me that looks, you know, I can give them a smile or whatever. But you're also pointing to what I believe and I was hoping you'd say that and I wasn't surprised you did that. I think a lot of you know.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 27:56

I look back at, I think we're in a time similar to and if you look at you know, the book Fourth Turning it talks about this similar to the Revolutionary War, civil War, world War II. We're in those times when the species is stirred up. The hornet's nest is stirred up for some reason, and in the past we saw a lot of great leaders formed. In the Civil War it was Grant, you know, and people like that, and World War II was Patton, was Grant, you know, and people like that, and World War II was Patton and, of course, eisenhower and those guys.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 28:27

I feel like the sense of the trail and I share this with my listeners to spark this idea in them too that a lot of our servant leaders are showing up in corporations and nonprofits and in the public sector, not necessarily at the leadership level but within the workings of those departments in the organization.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 28:48

So I think that we do have great hope and I think also a time like this is many people, I think, are facing that which you faced when you hit the wall right.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 29:04

We're seeing the external world can't give us what we expected or needed and a lot of times there's a lot of fear and disappointment about that. But if you look at that as a microcosm in a time when what used to work isn't working anymore and you realize I can't move the chairs around the Titanic enough, it doesn't seem to be working. I better look at myself and I really hope that people are really taking this time and beginning to reflect on what they care about, what's in their hearts, because that can only turn out for the better. But as we're looking at these global challenges and these business disruptions that we're dealing with and most organizations are experiencing reshaping in the way that the organizations must attend to a conscious development of leadership and culture, right, what do you see are keys for organizations that are doing that right now? If you were to say some guiding principles that must be in place to create, you know, high functioning, high performing organization in today's environment, what would you say? Those would be off the top of your head or your heart.

Vinay Kumar: 30:07

I think, if I just think about that for a moment right, yeah, take your time Each one must really get clear about what they care about, what's important, what contribution they want to make in their organizations, in their world, in their communities, that sense of a vision or desired outcome, of what impact we want to create. Based on that, once you have a destination in mind or impact in mind, it's committing to our development, our growth. I believe that when people grow, organizations grow, and when organizations grow, they have bigger impacts, they can create more of an impact.

Vinay Kumar: 30:41

So I think that's the connection that I see, David, and so I'm a big believer in growth. I think inner growth leads to outer growth. People growth leads to organizational growth and you mentioned business. I believe organization business is forced for good. A lot of great is being done out there. It's really getting clear about what matters to us, what impact we're going to have, and taking a stand for that. Having a leadership circle. We talk about purposeful vision, what is going to happen, and then really developing ourselves as individuals, as teams, as a collective group of people, and then taking the courageous action, taking the bold action, taking the uncomfortable action when necessary to create what matters. So I think learning is ongoing and it's critical.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 31:28

Yeah, I really just highlight what you just said, that inner growth equals outer growth. I even see sometimes old clients drifting back to the outer growth, drifting back to focusing on what we have to do to grow sales, what we have to do this and losing touch with that. And it's so true if you're supporting yourself and your direct reports to be the best version of themselves and they understand what the vision is. And the vision is compelling and inspiring and meaningful and you're taking care of people because you know. You know well-being is such a top topic right now that we have to be attending to because people are being confronted with so much. We have to be sensitive to that within organizations Not our responsibility, but it's a subject we need to be attentive to. But all that can be attended to through just being simply aware of what you care about. And how can I create that? In this conversation I'm having right now, the next conversation Obviously, we'll step back and think of broader things we have to do as well. So it's not just micro every, but it is the value of being clear about what you care about, and being present is a very powerful formula, right, it's a very powerful formula. Yeah, and the other thing.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 32:47

I was just curious to your point for you because you've been involved in the leadership development profession and now in a leadership position and in a leadership circle, it feels and I think actually I put this in the forum a few days ago about it feels like we have, as a profession, have to dig a little deeper to meet the day. And I'm wondering do you see a next step or an evolving step for our profession to deepen our capacity? Because on one hand, you can't expedite the development process. On the other hand, an executive who's extremely busy, you can't also pull them out of their office and say you need to go off on your two-week silent retreat. You know they have to do it in real time and I feel like there needs to be some efficiency and greater effectiveness. But I'm curious what you think about that and if you think our profession is being called to a greater capacity or competence at this time.

Vinay Kumar: 34:02

In terms of mine, I think about development not as separate from business. I think development happens in the context of business. So if you think about business, that's the playing field, that's the field on which we do our work. So how can we engage in development while doing our work? What do I mean by that? For example, let's say you have a leader who is maybe required to be more public-facing, more speaking. Yeah, they're uncomfortable, they're in discomfort. In doing that, they have to lean into the discomfort and develop themselves to start doing things that are uncomfortable. As they do those things, they have a business impact and in the process, they will also grow and develop.

Vinay Kumar: 34:43

So, I think they work and I don't think they're two separate things. I think development and business go hand in hand and they must go side by side. Not side by side, but rather together. So that's the difference. I think it's not separate. I think it's part of the journey. As we do our work, we also are developing, so we became more effective.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 35:04

Yeah, very good, well said, well said. Yeah, I agree. I couldn't agree more. And it's really continually enrolling our clients into that understanding that is important and that link can be pretty easily seen pretty quickly, I think, when you're coaching somebody. They can do that.

Vinay Kumar: 35:22

But no, I, as someone's going through development, will spend time. What are your aspirations, what are your goals and objectives? And then, is your current way of being going to get you there? If it is, there's no reason to develop it right. But if it's not going to get you there, then what you need to lean into and do and grow and learn and develop and stretch into that will get you to your desired outcome. Now development is happening in the context of business objectives whatever they care about.

Vinay Kumar: 35:49

So I think they're all together to me, David.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 35:52

Yeah, before the corporation existed, the same thing was true. People that were doing their own, they were conscious about greater development, were doing in the course of their life, whatever they were doing they were a cobbler. They may have been, I don't know a mechanic. Whatever they were doing in the course of their life. Whatever they were doing, they were a cobbler. They may have been, I don't know, a mechanic, whatever they were doing it that way as well. So it is the nature of living an integrated life, as you're pointing to. It's very important, and this is the next question of integration. So we're on this theme today of integration. I had a great fortune, as you know, of talking to Bob on this show, and I also talked to Chalmers on this show, and here's another intersection, and so let me ask you and I think you've already intimated this in the conversation so far.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 36:37

How do you see the framework of ontology and leadership circle working together in your work? Because you have a great respect for both of them, right, A great respect for the book that you wrote as well as a great respect for Leadership Circle. So how do you see the Red Book you wrote and the Leadership Circle profile integrating?

Vinay Kumar: 36:58

Yeah well, first of all, Chalmers and Bob Anderson, both guys I love dearly. I've learned so much from them.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 37:04

Me too, myself as well.

Vinay Kumar: 37:06

Two of my favorite guys on the planet. So thank you for bringing them up. There's great synergy between the two, right? If you look at the red book, the language book, the ontology is around observer action, results. Right, Results are a function of the action we take and actions are a function of the observer. That we are right, the way of being, how we interpret. So how does that connect to leadership circle?

Vinay Kumar: 37:27

If you look at leadership circle, in the center of most of leadership circle is what we call identity. Identity, to me, is our way of being. It's our beliefs, our values, our lived experiences, our skills and knowledge. Everything resides in there. From there flows outwards our leadership competencies, our behaviors that lead to effective leadership. So, on top half is, you know, creative competency 18 of them that are tied to effective performance and you know effective leadership and business performance. Bottom half is reactive tendencies. Those are also leadership behaviors, Overdone, they reduce effectiveness.

Vinay Kumar: 38:00

So if you look at the leadership circle, it's also observer action results. Identity is observer. The outer circle and the inner circle, those are the leadership competency, the behaviors as they do them, they create their impact, they create their results. So to me they're very much together. And if I look at the leadership circle. By through feedback, what we're getting is feedback on one's way of being. By through feedback, what we're getting is feedback on one's way of being, one's actions they're taking in the world, and also, underneath the way of being and the action, what are the beliefs that are driving those behaviors. So to me, leadership circle and ontology there's such a strong synergy. That's why those are my two big bodies of work I lean on.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 38:45

Yeah, they sure do. I mean I think If you don't get. I mean so many times when I've done a feedback session with the Leadership Circle profile with a client, it's been so impactful. In fact, you know I used other 360s before that and I would have to be the interpretive body for most of that. But I have a lot of clients that I've done the 360, and I walk into the feedback session and they will launch into what they've seen, what they do, and they already have ideas because it's so clear it hits you like a ton. Sometimes it hits you like a ton of bricks. Right, that's what we have to be ready for as practitioners with that, because it does kind of get hard but it helps. You see the observer you are very quickly.

Vinay Kumar: 39:32

And from a point of view of leadership, yeah, yeah, there's no better 360 for leadership developing the leadership circle, profile and other instruments. Leadership circle To me there was a time I started using assessments, david, I didn't know what to do with it. When I came to leadership circle, I don't know for me, it just really spoke to me and it really helped me see my stuff as well, and I have become a. I'm a big believer, as you know. Leadership circle profile is the most powerful, but I also like about it. It doesn't say that if your profile looks like this, this is what it means. No profile can capture this completely. No, no, no, no. What it does is it opens up really deep, rich conversations and that's where the work takes place. Deep, rich conversations and that's where the work takes place. That's where the transformation is.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 40:18

It is my number one, yeah, yeah, well, again, I mean, I agree with the whole thing about the leadership assessments that are out there that measure competency, and I think that has had to be evolved from because in a certain way, it was useful. It was insightful to the degree it was at that time. It was useful, it was insightful to the degree it was at that time. But I think you want to be helpful in the process of. First of all, it's a tender experience for anybody. I don't care how gruff you are or how tough you are.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 40:52

Looking at yourself like that, in a very straightforward and direct way, can be difficult Anytime. We look at ourselves sometimes it is, especially when you're in a position of authority, right. But it is so valuable when you bring compassion to that process and get help. You know if it does hit them between the eyes, well, what do you really care about? What do you want to create? It's one of those. It's one of the most inspiring conversations you can have with anybody and I'd never had any like that. That happened around other assessments, because the other assessments you can be very analytical, you can keep very distant from this. One kind of comes right in your face and into your heart and at the same time it's so grounded Bob's research and how grounded the assessment is and all the other competency models and Enneagram and philosophy and psychology. That's. You know, Bob is like I always say. He's the only guy I've met that had a statistician's brain at a highest level and a heart of gold. He integrated those two somehow in his work and you can see it.

Vinay Kumar: 42:03

And I mean with respect to other assessments. That's not my intention.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 42:07

No, no, no, no no.

Vinay Kumar: 42:10

For me. I found leadership circle to be the most powerful, most effective instrument in really leading to transformative conversations that really include both the outer game and the inner game. Nothing else for me has done that, except leadership circles so far.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 42:25

Yeah, it's true, it's a matter of effectiveness, right, as a coach, what helps To me? It goes back to the conversation how do you expedite things, and that's another thing that expedites clarity in the individual, getting the feedback, which I love a lot too. Anything else that you say you would say that you love about the leadership circle that you feel is pertinent to our times and important for our times, or anything else you would say about that body of work that you find is most enriching and valuable to you and to the executives that you coach.

Vinay Kumar: 43:05

I think, as we mentioned, it's leadership circle, feedback and instruments connected directly to business performance, leadership effectiveness. We've done research on that and there's a direct connection between leadership growth, leadership effectiveness and business performance. There's a direct link there. It really helps leaders see both the inner game and the outer game. It helps them see where they have their foot on the gas and where, annoyingly, they may have their foot on the brakes. That's reducing effectiveness. Not that they're conscious of it, it's often unconscious, and when they can see it they can say well, let me take the foot off the brake. What happens is they go faster, they get more done at a lower energetic cost. So it works on both reducing effectiveness, what's increased effectiveness, and then you can make some what I call some shifts in how they think, how they behave and how they act. That really creates better outcomes. So to me it looks at both the brakes and the gas as a metaphor.

Vinay Kumar: 44:00

It looks at the end game and the cover game and looks at our beliefs and when we make the shift on the inside, shift on the outside naturally happens and I think leadership circle profile brings all that to light through the conversation.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 44:13

I really like that. You can go faster, you can be more effective, you get more done, and with lower energy depletion. That is key, because clarity and energy are so important for an executive.

Vinay Kumar: 44:29

And it helps you, not only depletion, david, but also when you move into creative, it's energy generating. Yeah, energy generating, that's right, exactly. Not only depletion, david, but also when you move into creative, it's energy generating.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 44:35

Yeah, energy generating. That's right. Exactly, not just depleting, it's energy generating. That's good clarification there. Yeah, so, as you look towards the future, if you take out your crystal ball, what do you see as the key skills and competencies that you believe leaders are going to have to continue to develop to be most effective in navigating the complexities we're dealing with and will likely deal with in the future? We could say there's certain things that may not be sustainable out there, that could be breakdowns ready to happen. We all feel that. I'm not trying to be a doomsday or I'm not trying to instill fear, but there are breakdowns that you feel coming. So what do you think leaders have to? Who are running organizations to keep them going, to keep thriving? That are primary skills that they have to develop that you think are most important moving forward.

Vinay Kumar: 45:43

The quote that comes to mind for me, david, is that things are changing so darn rapidly. None of us is smart as all of us. We have to work together. We have to tap into the collective wisdom, collective experience. So to me it's not just individual development, it's the collective development at the leadership levels. So as leadership teams, how we develop, how we become learners, how we collaborate, tap into each other's experiences, thinking, wisdom, perspectives.

Vinay Kumar: 46:07

By doing that, be more collaborative, be more open, be more learning I'm going to be learning. I think we'll see more possibilities and more ways of addressing challenges. So if I look at leadership teams, the most effective leadership teams are well, they're all in their developmental journey, they're all learning out loud, they're learning together. They're looking at the challenges, the opportunities through multiple lenses to see how you move forward. Some things work, some things don't. But to me it's the power, the opportunities to multiple lenses to see how you move forward. Some things work, some things don't. But to me it's the power of the collective. So it's the work of the individual and collective development.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 46:45

Ongoing learning is absolutely critical, even more so today. Yeah, I mean, we've got to stop looking. We have to start looking to how can we work together. You know we have to start looking to how can we work together. And I think you know, you see that on executive teams, when it's like I know this is going to sound a little out there, but sometimes when I see an executive team starting to click, it's like it's like the boys and girls are back in. You know earlier times when they were just trying to figure out how to create something together and have fun and and and. There's some energy in the room that wasn't there before and there might even be a couple of conflicts that pop up, but they get through them. There's something that's holding them together in the conversation Respect and trust for each other. Obviously, they care about what they're up to and they're taking they're not taking things so personally. They're recognizing, you know, and when you get that together, there's nothing that can't be done, you know, and nothing that can't be accomplished.

Vinay Kumar: 47:50

We want to experiment. Right, because none of us, not everything, is going to work out. But take some chance to taste some risk, try different things. Something is going to work, some things aren't going to work. But to me, life is a constant experimentation. Every time we do something. If it doesn't work, we learn from it. If it works, we keep doing it. So I think more experimentation, more learning is ongoing. Who was it, peter I? So I think more experimentation, more learning is ongoing. Who was it Peter? I guess in the fifth discipline that the future organization will be learning organizations. So learning and developing is so critical.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 48:24

It's going to become more important, david, in my view. Yeah, I just saw actually thinking about reaching the impossible. I don't know if you saw the movie NIAID with Jodie Foster and sort of Renee Annette Bennis, I mean the 64-year-old woman that finally swam from Miami, from Cuba, to Miami, to the Keys. And I look at that and I was watching that movie I was so inspired and saying, okay, my concerns are so small compared. I mean, she made it 75 miles and had to stop because she got stung by jellyfish or whatever man of wars. Another time she just ran out of steam and she did it.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 49:07

Oh, five times it took her to get to her goal and, uh, she did it at 64. And it just makes you realize that that's what's possible as human beings and it wasn't just because of her, it was because of her team, her team that you know a lot of times got kicked around by her a little bit. It was a pretty phenomenal reminder of everything the leadership circle is about and what we're trying to imbue the possibilities in people that we have so much capability in us that remains silent for too long you know, none of us do life alone, none of us do business alone, none of us need alone.

Vinay Kumar: 49:44

We all need each other and together we can achieve so much more. And like the story here and I had that's a beautiful movie there, it's a true story actually. Actually it is, of course, what a clear goal that she had in mind. She was supported by brilliant individuals who supported her. And, yes, there were setbacks along the way. There were jellyfish bites and exhaustion, all those things. Yes, she kept persevering, she kept learning, she kept experimenting, went into others and look what she accomplished.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 50:13

Yeah, yeah, so much is possible.

Vinay Kumar: 50:14

She kept experimenting with it through others, and look what she accomplished. Yeah, yeah, so much is possible.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 50:16

Yeah, it's great. Well, you know, as we wrap up a little bit here, you know what is your hope for the future of leadership in the world and the organizational culture, or whatever. What do you see? What's your guiding light for why you do this work? Obviously, you're working with individual clients and that's enough. That's great. You could have a really robust coaching practice. Touch 20, 25 leaders a year. You do that, enough, you're going to have an impact. But do you have any other guiding light that you are envisioning for what's possible moving forward that you'd like to share?

Vinay Kumar: 50:52

Are you referring to myself? Are you referring to the-.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 50:54

Yeah, yeah yourself, and what you see and what you hope for.

Vinay Kumar: 50:58

For me, it's about what I think about at this point in my journey, david, is how do I scale impact? So I think that's one of the reasons I love being on faculty of Georgia Washington, and Leadership Circle in particular, is that, in addition to Georgia Washington, is that really developing other coaches right as they get into leadership circle and work with instruments as they develop? Then it's how we multiply impact. So, leadership study group, leadership circle profile, being on faculty, developing other coaches to do this amazing work and, if I can play a small role in that, that's how we scale impact.

Vinay Kumar: 51:33

So, that's kind of scale impact Absolutely. That's kind of why my journey is how do I develop others who can then go out and do the work and touch more lives and as we do it's a real impact, I think, in this world here.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 51:43

There's no doubt, and what I love about what you're saying is you know, it's about knowing what's important and always, life is like inviting you to do more, Not to do more for the sake of doing more. But if you have your passion, there's always new things that open up. You know, the opportunity at Leadership Circle opened up for you. The opportunity at Georgetown opened up for you because of your passion and because of your engagement and you stepped into that and then you met people that you've had impact on, and it's the same thing for me. It's really a beautiful thing when one lets go and allow.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 52:16

To me it's also a paradox, because I am life itself and I'm not life right. I'm not the boss. I mean, David is not the boss, Life is the boss right, and if I can surrender to life, it maps out everything for me. And surrendering and letting go surrendering, not giving up, obviously I'm not saying giving up, but surrendering to the opportunities that are given to me. If I take those opportunities, it tends to expand and I don't have to think about 10 years down the road. It's just what do I really care about now and what do I want to expand around me? Well, yeah, as we wrap up. Do you have any final words that you want to share with my audience? Anything you want to just say to feel complete for today?

Vinay Kumar: 53:08

What can I say here? Just keep really investing in yourselves, keep investing in your growth. Have a clear vision of what impact you want to have. And just best wishes and just really glad you're here. We're all doing this together and together we can accomplish so much more. So just have a great respect for leaders. I think leadership is a demanding role and just keep showing up every day, do what you do and keep learning and bring the best of yourself. Good things happen for them, good things will happen for the organizations and the impact. Yeah, I'm not sure what more to say at this point, david but, just enjoy this conversation.

David Craig Utts, The Resilient Leadership Guy: 53:45

Yeah, I very much enjoyed it too, vinay, and thank you very much for coming and joining me today, and I want to thank everybody out there that has been listening to the podcast and attending and showing back up to Unfazed Under Fire. The only way people get to know about this beyond my social media shares is for you in the audience to share these rich conversations with other people in your network, and what we're again, what we're trying to do, is spark inspiration and possibility, as hopefully you saw we did in the show today, so please get these out to the people that you know the links it's available on Apple Podcasts and many other podcast stations, and I want to thank you again for taking your time out of the day to listen to the show. I wish you Godspeed in the rest of your day or evening, wherever you're at, and this is David Craig Utts, the Resilient Leadership Guy signing off. Have a great rest of your day, so you.