Intro to Podcast: 0:11

Welcome to Unfazed Under Fire, a podcast designed to elevate your leadership and amplify your impact. Each episode offers valuable insights to help you transform your vision into reality, cultivate high-performing cultures that attract top talents, and navigate the complexities of today's uncertain, chaotic world with confidence and clarity. Now tuning into your needs, here's your host and moderator, seasoned executive coach and leadership alchemist, david Craig Utz.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 0:46

Welcome back to Unphased Under Fire. I'm David Craig Utz, the leadership alchemist, your host and moderator for the show Now. This show is dedicated to helping senior executives amplify their leadership impact, gain fresh insights and build the resilience needed to thrive in today's unpredictable world. And we feature two types of guests on the show thought leaders in leadership development, organizational culture and team dynamics, who can share their strategies in a tailored way to the executive challenges that are being faced by you. And also we have unseasoned executives like me today, who have embraced leadership development and recognize that people and culture are keys to maximizing organizational value. Now, at its core, this show is about pioneering breakthroughs in leadership and culture, ensuring you provide rewarding work experiences to your people, ensuring they are inspired to excellence in service to your vision and priorities.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 1:37

I am a stand that culture is created and sustained through leadership. Thus leading is the fundamental driver of value for organizations. In my mind, through leadership, thus leading is the fundamental driver of value for organizations. In my mind, as an executive, the development of your leadership, therefore, is one of the most worthwhile investments you can make in yourself and for your organization. And, ultimately, it has been proven that effective leadership begins from within. True impact comes from self-mastery the foundation for leading others with clarity and confidence In these disruptive times. Self-mastery the foundation for leading others with clarity and confidence In these disruptive times. Self-mastery is not just beneficial, it is essential to your success. When executives harness their inner resourcefulness, they lead from the inside out. They unlock the full potential of collaboration, which is the most powerful unifying force any organization can wield in service to high performance. Now, today, we're joined by special guest, jasmine Ahmed, and it is a great honor to have her on the show today. So welcome, jasmine. Great to have you.

Jasmine Ahmed: 2:34

Hi David, Thank you for having me.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 2:36

You're welcome, so I'm just going to talk a little bit about you now. So Jasmine has a rich, diverse career in finance and digital transformation. Jasmine has a rich, diverse career in finance and digital transformation. She is known for advising executives on embracing disruption to shift the paradigm and unleash the power of human capital and, most recently, the focus has centered around advancements in emerging technologies. She gets the most joy from inspiring talent across all organizational levels to lean into the change surrounding us, to elevate ourselves and become the best version of ourselves.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 3:08

So we're in sync there, for sure, and Jasmine started her career in management consulting with PwC, transitioned into corporate at Pfizer and from there she spent time at several global organizations such as National Grid, dentsu, news Corp and, most recently, coca-cola, and her experience in each of these organizations shared one common thread orchestrating the organization's journey towards its North Star. Now Jasmine lives in New York City where she's raising a 14-year-old daughter with her husband, and when you're not in the office, you're either coaching university students to transition into the workforce or you're hopefully, relaxing a lot with your family and having fun with them. Right, and we met on LinkedIn and I reached out to get acquainted and we had a couple of really deep conversations about organizational life, the impact leaders can have and the critical importance of like having one people you know in the process of innovation and transformation and, quite frankly, I was blown away by your experience and knowledge that you have throughout your career and I'm really looking forward to having this conversation. Did I leave anything out that you wanted to add there?

Jasmine Ahmed: 4:16

David, I think you've just over. I am flattered and happy to be here and happy to have a conversation.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 4:27

Let's go. Let's go Well. First of all, I really love it when I have an executive leader on If they spend a little bit of time talking in your own words about your career journey and you've had a very enriching one and you know what drew you into finance initially, and initially public accounting, and how did that morph into a career in transformation. That's a lot to ask, but we can start there.

Jasmine Ahmed: 4:51

No, no, thank you. Thank you, david. You know I like to start off a little bit because when people ask me, how did you get into finance, how did you get into transformation, how did you get into accounting, I think my question I get very puzzled. I'm like, well, hold on, I don't think I intended. No one intends to create a career in transformation. I don't think.

Jasmine Ahmed: 5:14

Even if I step back, did I ever intend to? You know, 30 years ago, did I think this is what I was going to be doing? No, absolutely not. But if I go back and then I start peeling the onion, I'm like, okay, where did this all come from? I actually I go back into my childhood and and I think my childhood as much as we underestimate our upbringing, um, it does, at least in my opinion for myself, has had a lasting impact, organically and how it's, into my career, into what I do for a living now. But just to give everyone a little bit of perspective, your audience, I am your typical first year immigrant growing up in the 80s in the US where you know, today in New York City, you see immigrants left, right and center.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 6:08

Right, you sure do.

Jasmine Ahmed: 6:10

In Northern Virginia. It was not the norm. It was not the norm at all. My parents I was relatively young, English was not their first language. I was the oldest of four children and I think, when I reflect back, you know you grow up in an environment where change is what you're living with. Nothing makes sense. You're trying to bridge the gap between your household and when you step out of the house, you don't have any relationships you don't have, you don't understand the cultural norms you don't have any of, you don't have anything. Basically. And and I think, just having that context and that upbringing and that environment, that I had taught me to be resilient, and I think, when I think about transformation, transformation was very much what I needed to do. And what is transformation Basically going? It's not change. It's going from point A to point B and I had to figure out.

Jasmine Ahmed: 7:15

Yes, this is my point A. My point B is how do I move forward? How do I? And, yes, I'm going to fall, but what can I do? I can get back up and try again, experiment again and push forward and get creative. Right, you're, you're sitting there, you're trying to solve problems on your own and you're getting creative and one thing works and the other thing doesn't.

Jasmine Ahmed: 7:39

And the most one story that recently that I used to just showcase the experimentation and exploring which I think manifests itself in what we call change management and transformation in culture today is at the age of 16, you know, I had an opportunity to intern at the National Institutes of Health and I knew very well that, for a paid internship at an organization of that caliber and that pedigree, I had no relationships there. It was going to be extremely competitive and I quickly recognized that they were going to have hundreds of applications and my probability, if I just focus on the math, was slim to nothing. So in my head I'm like the math was slim to nothing. So in my head I'm like, okay, well, how do I break the odds? How do I work against the math and get at the top of the slot? And the creative.

Jasmine Ahmed: 8:34

At that point, 16-year-old me, said that you know what? I'm going to go to the library, the NIH library. I told my parents, can you just take me to the library? I went there and started researching some of the labs and some of the directors and looked at their work, pulled one out, read up on him, reached out to him and I said you know, dr Such and Such, I love the work that you do on HIV because it was a big hot topic back then. I love the work that you're doing on HIV. I would love it if I could come in and spend 30 minutes with you and get to learn about the work that you do. He welcomed me in. I learned about his journey.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 9:17

Very impressive.

Jasmine Ahmed: 9:18

Had that experience and then, long behold, at the end I said oh, you know, there's an internship opportunity, would you mind? You know, I would love to be able to spend the summer with you and learn more from you. Fast forward, I have the internship and I look at that and that's actually what today is. That's what transformation is. It's about problem solving and getting very creative. So finish school and after that it's been very traditional right, like management consulting, going to Pfizer from their national grid, and Dentsu and News Corp and WPP and now Coca-Cola. It's been a little bit all over the chart.

Jasmine Ahmed: 9:58

But what I learned very quickly over the years, from the very start, is one be curious, don't stop learning, get creative, focus on your skills and use your skills, your transferable skills, to pivot in every place that you go to and build and grow from it. And third, it doesn't matter if you have the best technology or the best innovation. It comes down to the people. And while personally it played a big role my own development, my own growth but I think it also became a part of my leadership culture as well, putting people in the center of it.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 10:45

Yes, Well, that's a really great story. I love how you got an internship. You developed some sales abilities along the way as well, along with that resilience. Right yeah, go ahead.

Jasmine Ahmed: 11:03

Yeah, go ahead. No, no, I love your annotation on sales. You know, it was several years ago, but not too back in the future. I was in a conversation with a good friend of mine who has a very successful career in sales and I was sharing with him. I was like, oh, you know, I don't sell. And he's like what are you talking about? You do sell. I'm like, no, of course, I'm horrible at selling, I'm horrible at selling. And they're like no, no, no, you do sell. You sell change, you sell ideas.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 11:36

That's a big, it's a big, it's a big deal in what you do.

Jasmine Ahmed: 11:39

Yeah, and it's like oh yeah, I guess I sell ideas, I just don't sell products Hardcore brick and mortar.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 11:47

Selling ideas is harder than selling products. Let me tell you, you know, something you mentioned about your story about being a first generation immigrant to the US, and I have talked to a couple others that have had that similar experience, and one recently. One of my clients just got his US citizenship, you know, and one day he said to me Dave, look out at all of what people complain about in this country. And you know, I think sometimes people forget what they have. But I'm telling you right now, this is the greatest place of opportunity still that I've ever been a part of. Now, he came from a particular country where that was somewhat limited, but you know, do you ever wonder that? I mean, do you, do you have you? How have you?

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 12:31

And I'm not trying to get overly patriotic, I'm just curious what your experience was as you went through. I have no idea what's going on. I don't know the language, I don't know. You started getting your sea legs and started realizing what was possible here. What was that experience like for you? Do you feel that? Still Just curious?

Jasmine Ahmed: 12:52

Well, I mean absolutely. I think we live. I am blessed. You know, those sacrifices that my parents made to give up everything that was in their comfort zone and come here is a blessing for us, and they did it for us, for their future generation. We're the biggest beneficiaries of their compromises and their sacrifices and I saw that from the get-go right. You know, when you're complaining, looking at the glass half full, looking at how brown the grass is, doesn't get us anywhere. What gets us is you sit there and you're like okay what are the deck of cards?

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 13:34

Because you're miserable.

Jasmine Ahmed: 13:39

Yes, right, so you like. But actually, taking the deck of cards that have been handed to you, and you take a look at those deck of cards and you say, well, how do I make the best use of them? How do I get the most out of the deck of cards that I have? And if I look at my transformation philosophy that has actually been one of those underlying philosophies that I have taken with me in every opportunity it's like, well, OK, and people will ask me. They're like, oh, you know which company is better, which industry is better? Is it the big, Is it the small, Is it the medium? I'm like, well, they're all different. It's like they'll ask you what country?

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 14:23

is the best.

Jasmine Ahmed: 14:23

I was like well, they're all different. You take the most of what each piece of the puzzle has and you ironically bring up a very. You know I don't. I religiously, religiously do not talk politics Never. But you know, I came but because of your question as an immigrant, I'm struggling to now stop myself. And so originally I'm from Bangladesh and I don't know if some of your readers follow.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 14:56

What's going on over there, right, yeah, yes.

Jasmine Ahmed: 15:01

And the core of it is actually this Right Like, what was the biggest catalyst for the Gen Zs? The biggest catalyst was getting opportunities to grow. Yes, be it employment, be it education, be it jobs, be it, you know, whatever, that was actually the biggest catalyst. And when you're, when we in the us, have all the opportunities in front of us, some of these basic needs, yes, could they be more optimal?

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 15:31

everything can be more optimal. Yeah, it's a more perfect union. Right, it's never. It's never perfection. We're seeking it, but it's not ever there.

Jasmine Ahmed: 15:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you see that and you're like you know, this is a blessing, it's a gift that we have.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 15:46

Yeah, thank you for sharing that Well, and this kind of bleeds into you started talking about it. You know thinking about your style as a leader. As a bridge from that journey, how would you describe your leadership brand or what are the foundational principles you use to guide your leadership?

Jasmine Ahmed: 16:04

So I'm a big advocate that, as a leader, we have a moral responsibility and obligation towards the people that we are leading, because, after all, they spend more time on our teams and our organizations than they do with their own families, with their own loved ones.

Jasmine Ahmed: 16:28

And you know, people can have more or less resources, they can have more or less networks, they can have more or less of things, but the one thing that we don't have more or less of is time, and time is one of the finite things that we have and I truly believe that today, for example, the hour that I'm spending with you is basically an hour that I have shaved off of my life.

Jasmine Ahmed: 16:59

So we, as a leader I think it's a really good reminder for us it's like look, you know, people are giving their time to us. So when someone gives us their time, we have a responsibility to understand and appreciate what are their aspirations, and appreciate what are their aspirations, what gives them the most joy, what helps them become better versions of themselves, what are they looking to get out of life as individuals Because we are, ultimately, at the end of the day, individuals and a collective group and as leaders, then how can we take that time that they're giving to us our teams, our organizations to also be mutually beneficial to them in helping them get closer to their aspirations. That's something that's very near and dear to my heart and I don't take it for granted one bit that any one person who gives me their time I don't take that for granted at all. It's a blessing.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 18:15

Yeah, it's really beautifully said. I mean to me. I mean the leaders are under. It seems to be more and more pressure than I've ever seen before. I've never seen people executives more busy. I don't know if this is just me, but I work with a lot of executives and it seems like finding even time used to be that executive coaching was an opportunity to force reflection and now sometimes it's challenging to choose to work with a coach because that's an hour of my time a week, plus you're going to ask me to do something in between sessions that I have to reflect on. I mean, that's another hour, that's two hours a week and I don't know if I have the investment of that right. And yet you're right.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 18:50

The people that come to work for you. You're under pressure to produce results, obviously to generate value for the company, but you also. I remember one executive saying you know he was at a wedding and watching the father give away a bride and he just was just recognition. I've got people coming to work every day. I I can either create an opportunity for them to go home and kick the dog, or I can have an opportunity to take the pressure off them, give them something inspiring and go home and, you know, love his family, love his or her family up, right and and and I have an opportunity to actually have impact, depending on how many direct reports I have on, you know, 7, 8, 9, 12 lives that are directly impacted by me, and the people that really blossom into leadership, I find are the ones that get that they recognize that their people are precious and that they are giving them time. So I really appreciate you saying that. You know, no, no, and I think you know I'm going to go ahead. You want to say something?

Jasmine Ahmed: 19:57

else, Isaac, it just you know, when you have someone who comes back and says, you know, Jasmine or Dave, I really appreciated this that you did for me, or I really appreciate that you empowered me to go from point A to point B. Those are the stories we remember the most and those are the stories that we keep close to our heart the most.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 20:21

And they absolutely are. You know, and we can talk of many organizations that kind of give lip service to the value of people and culture and I know you're fully dedicated to it. A lot of the companies that I work with they're, to certain different degrees, dedicated to it. But when we spoke prepare for this podcast, you had a very honest take on culture that I love and it kind of bleeds back to something you said earlier about you have to make the best of what you got and in containing that, you know that one of the things is you have to make sure that the people that are being infected by the change in a change process are essential to include in the process. And I know it's obvious question, but can you say more why it's important to include those that are most affected by the change process? Because sometimes I feel like there's second thought in a lot of times cases.

Jasmine Ahmed: 21:13

That's the problem. Right, that is the biggest problem. We believe that we want to deploy some technology and we're going to get the world's best project PM and the best implementation strategy and we're going to build the solution and we're going to go live with it and people will just use it. And when you take that approach, that's one approach you can take, but that approach is not why we do it. To create value in anything that we do, it's people creates value and people create value based on how they think and how they act, and it's both sets, both sides of it. You have to think it and then you have to action it right, and that's how human beings create value. Now, if I want people yes, go ahead.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 22:11

I say, and in between that which is essential, sometimes people don't get it. It's conversations that link those two together Thinking, conversation, execution Right. And it's the conversations we have with people and how we have them with people that affects both how they think and how they act Right.

Jasmine Ahmed: 22:29

Right, right. And then you have to like emotional, like it has to be. You know it has to emotionally resonate with people as to why. And so I'm a big advocate that, even when you are pulling together your strategy, even when you're defining your North Star, when you are defining your North Star, talk to the people who are going to be impacted by that, help them get their input and co-create that North Star with them.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 23:03

And what is the value when you do that? What is the value for you in the change process? How does that impact the transformation process that you're in?

Jasmine Ahmed: 23:13

Right, because when they are co-creating the North Star with you, then throughout that journey, when you are working with them to implement a change, work with the timeline, get them to think and act differently or inspiring them, you're actually doing it in service of them and their needs and their aspirations. You're doing it because they, because collectively, as a group, you believe that that's the best thing for them as a team and as individuals, and there's ownership and commitment at the grassroots from the get go, and that's quite important, and it also gives you a much more, what I call a much more relevant solution versus something abstract. It's going to be a solution that actually meets their needs and makes their lives better.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 24:16

Yeah, and if they're actually going to be implementing the process or the change or the procedure or whatever you're changing. You know, it's like to me. The metaphor of somebody that I you know one of my colleagues says is collaboration is about getting in the same boat, rowing the same direction, and that means that people have ownership of the direction too, that there's ownership in the direction, and that provides a much smoother and effective actually implementation of the change, right as you pointed to Right, right, right, and then you truly get to realize the value.

Jasmine Ahmed: 24:59

right, Because I think most so many. We hear time and time again that the data point on transformation initiatives not being effective and delivering the business outcomes we were looking for, or the ROI, was shortchanged, and when you peel the onion, it comes down to because we did not include the human element of it. We did not do the change management. Change management was an afterthought.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 25:27

You think sometimes people get overly enameled with the shiny object of the ROI or the result and they lose track of that. Is that what sometimes happens, that we just need to get this done and move this project forward and get to the deadline and make it happen? Is there any truth to that, do you think?

Jasmine Ahmed: 25:44

I think, like the natural, let's take digital, because that's very front and center, right, right, digital solutions. We have to be respectful that digital solutions are tech solutions. They are very engineering focused solutions, right, they're technical solutions. And implementing a tech, implementing a digital solution, requires a robust project plan. You have costs associated with that implementation. You need to, there's codes to build, there's infrastructure to build, there's data to migrate, et cetera, and the list goes on.

Jasmine Ahmed: 26:30

But that's not the only thing that's on the project plan. The project plan, while it may have calculated another mathematical calculation of what the ROI is, the human element of it, we haven't, we don't do enough to lean into our EQ muscles to say, okay, well, what is it going to take for people to go from point A to B and how do I incorporate those key priorities into my projects plan? And that goes way beyond training and communication. That's when I you know, that's a bit of my pet peeve is there's a you know many when I hear change management being all about really good training and really good communication and it's like no change management is more than that. It's actually getting human beings to think and act differently to give you an expected result.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 27:34

That's the core of it, isn't it Right? That is the absolute core of it. All the other stuff is meant to support, like training or project plans. It's all meant to be those structures that sometimes get overemphasized as the thing lose track of what you just said. Right, Is that you're trying?

Jasmine Ahmed: 27:50

to change hearts and minds. Yes, it's like we live in a world where, somehow, if you communicate to people that you need to jump and you show people how to jump, then people will just jump, and it's like no people need to understand, they need to be comfortable, they need to think a certain way and then they need to want to do it when you're not in the room.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 28:17

Yes, exactly, exactly. Yeah, Well, you know, in speaking like value magnifying, value creation and results, I mean the factors that have the most impact on, you know, magnifying results, creation and results. I mean the factors that have the most impact on, you know, magnifying results and value creation. I'd said at the top of the podcast, which is light and leadership culture and emphasis on collaboration. I mean, if those are put into place as the emphasis and all these other ingredients are then magnified or used, the training will go better, the project plan will go better and you will know what to train them on.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 28:54

You'll know what to train them on and what not to train them on, what to waste your time on and what not to waste your time on, right, yeah, and you said another thing when we were preparing for the call that I really liked that you also again pointed to at the top which is this refreshing view of culture that there's no one culture that is best. Which is this refreshing view of culture that there's no one culture that is best. You added that organizations need to do a better job of stepping back and bringing a more future focus to their culture, asking themselves where they're headed in the future and what culture is best to meet that future. And I think one of your favorite quotes is Wayne Gretzky's quote of it's a gate to where the puck is going to be versus where it's been right. Can you say a little bit more about what you mean by stepping back and how do organizations assess the culture to meet future needs?

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 29:41

Right now, it's hard to say what's going to happen tomorrow. Right, we're waiting for the next broadcast to come through and say, oh, that happened. I can't believe that. I never thought that would happen. So how do leaders do that Kind of shape the culture for the future. If you could talk a little bit about that.

Jasmine Ahmed: 29:56

Right, I think, like because we go straight into you know, I think traditionally, when we look at our talent and when we are measuring performance, I think many organizations even though I'm starting to see a shift in this is traditionally, historically, it's been about did you meet your KPIs and you're going to get measured? Your performance will be measured on your KPIs, and then, more recently now, what I love is the increased conversation on the skills and capabilities required to effectively deliver on the KPIs, and measuring and that being a core pillar of talent development. The piece that we're not talking about enough of is and sometimes we call it fit, sometimes we talk about well, you're just not a cultural fit. We hear that and we hear bits and pieces of it, but in a much more structured manner. I think we, as leaders, what we owe to ourselves and our organizations is to say well, where are we as an organization? Where do we want to be as an organization?

Jasmine Ahmed: 31:22

So then, what are the values that are imperative, that each and every person in this organization must reflect?

Jasmine Ahmed: 31:33

And it must manifest itself, because without it, you can have the best skills, you can deliver the best KPIs, but it's not going to give us sustainable growth and bring the best out of all of our human capital capital and being very intentional about it.

Jasmine Ahmed: 31:50

So you know, for example, if in your culture, or if and be very mindful, because you can't have everything under the sky right, very, prioritize what are those values and those dimensions that are so important to you and let's say, for example and let's say, for example, curiosity is an important value for your organization, that everyone should be demonstrating your people routines and the way you manage performance and the way you empower everyone in the organization to hold everyone accountable to curiosity.

Jasmine Ahmed: 32:39

And then, going into when you're actually even attracting talent and going through the life cycle, are you assessing your candidates, candidates on curiosity? And that's just. I'm just using a use case example, but I do feel that that's quite important because if you get the culture right, everything else becomes much easier. Right, like the famous saying on culture eat strategy for breakfast every day. It's very real, because when you get those cultural values aligned and everyone lives and breathes it, then, organically, your intended outcome will naturally happen. You, as a leader, do not need to tell people what to do or what not to do, or they will. They will be able to self-lead and you can lead from the back.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 33:35

That's awesome. Well, it'd be great I mean, I don't know if you'd be you'd think about a story where all this gets integrated. Now you also talk about having to break down silos between departments or divisions or groups to also do that. So you have we have multiple groups in an organization that'll be affected by something. They're not always talking to each other, but you have to break those things down to kind of make sure you're getting to your North Star and getting the best, richest feedback you can to support you in that. Maybe you could, if you'd be willing to share. You can change the names to protect the innocent or whatever, but share a story that you you felt that you is a robust experience that you had where it all came together in a way that you know that that that kind of brings us what we're talking about together.

Jasmine Ahmed: 34:25

So I will share a story, but before I share that story, you know we talk. I think this is a common challenge that I hear everywhere about the silos right, everyone working in their silos, that's a cultural value, right?

Jasmine Ahmed: 34:38

and if there, you go breaking down silos and collaborating and working with each other is a core dimension of your culture. That's that you want to prioritize right then, make that happen like um. But stories to share, I mean as a trans, I mean in many of my roles as a transformation um leader, typically, uh, sitting in either corporate or head office type of setup. I'm already in an environment where I'm leading the change agenda for a. You know, most of these large organizations have multiple business units.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 35:21

Yes.

Jasmine Ahmed: 35:22

And some are bigger, some are smaller, some are stronger, some are more influential than others. Right, like it's not. And then, even within that, you have domain expertise, you have technology, you have HR, you have finance marketing. You have different dimensions, different domain and different business units.

Jasmine Ahmed: 35:56

I think a common theme for me in multiple organizations the journey is keeping in mind that and being very, very true to it, is I look at myself as more of a diplomat In the change journey. In the change journey, and what I mean by that is if I want to keep my credibility as someone that every brand and every function can trust as their transformation advisor, then I need to ensure that in whatever solution, whatever idea, whatever problem we're trying to solve, for everyone has a voice at the table. And yes, this will take us longer, yes, it will be more painful, but it pays back dividends in the long run. So if it's an organization where I'm helping them build out their technology roadmap for the future, ensuring that both technology and finance have a seat at the table from each and every brand and everyone has a voice on their needs, their points of resistance, points of contention, helping everyone feel comfortable that they can put all their cards out on the table.

Jasmine Ahmed: 37:19

I am not going to judge them, but if they want me to be their advocate, if they want me to represent their views, then I would need everyone's voice. I need them to be transparent, I need them to share, and when you do that enough times consistently, people realize that you're not here trying to push your own agenda right, and you are actually there to pull together an agenda that everyone can feel it's theirs and they have an equal voice. Now will they have to compromise? Of course they will have to compromise. Everyone has to compromise. That's life. But I think what's more important for people is that they have a voice and they're being heard.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 38:06

Well, this goes back to your comment of facilitating the journey to the North Star. But everybody has input into what that input not only how to get there, but input in what that ought to be. Because they have, they're closer to the front lines most of the time, many times right, they understand the impact of the change and so yeah. Yeah, so. So anything else on that? Or are you good and I'd love you to have to share a story if you could?

Jasmine Ahmed: 38:34

I did read a story on the tech roadmap, on the technology Perfect.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 38:40

If you felt, like I did, that we could leave it there. You did a great job. We'll leave it there. So you also said but I look at this issue of transformation, the transformation that you facilitate, and it looks so complex. You said that you know it's not as hard as everybody makes it out to be. Can you say more what you mean by that? Because it seems like you're bringing all these people together and there are challenges. I'm not saying there aren't challenges, but I was just curious if you'd follow back up on that comment we made when we were talking last time.

Jasmine Ahmed: 39:15

Yes, yes. So transformation is hard because changing changes hard, right, like we are creatures of habits Number one. That makes it hard, and we are. If you have 10 people in a room, 10 people are creatures of habits in their own right. That's what makes it hard, that's true, right. And when you're trying to break those habits and create new habits that are more unified, what that requires us to do, everyone to do, is compromise. Come to a common place where everyone has a little bit of compromising to do.

Jasmine Ahmed: 40:08

I haven't been in any transformation journey where one person got everything and one person had to compromise all the way. Right, everyone has to compromise a little bit and, as a collective group, rally behind where those points of unity will be and where those points of compromise will be, will take place any hurdles or roadblocks that may fundamentally for lack of better words cripple someone right or hinder their ability to get their job done. How do we address that? I think, once you address those hurdles and those roadblocks and this could be that this could be something as simple as their stakeholders you need to help their stakeholders buy into the ideas that they can buy into it.

Jasmine Ahmed: 41:16

It could be. They need a specific. They've got a customer with a specific need that needs to be addressed or their specific data that we need to obtain. Whatever those hurdles are, those are change hurdles. Pain, whatever those hurdles are, those are change hurdles. And really solutioning out what's the best practical way of addressing those hurdles and solving for them. And the more we solve for those hurdles and remove those roadblocks, then it just becomes easier for the group to embrace the change.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 41:54

Well, this goes back to your story when you were an immigrant, trying to figure things out and working hard. It's like it goes back to your. Why you're so good at this is like you know, whenever, as I tell leaders, whenever you have a vision and there's obstacles are inherent, otherwise everybody be doing it right.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 42:11

And then you point to the thing that you know everybody is conditioned, Like I say, there's one earth and you know, you know 80, 8 billion worlds, right, everybody's in their own world, based on their experience. And that that you know and everybody's got to get that they have to compromise. Number one everybody's has to understand that up front. That's one of the recognitions where everybody's going to have to give in a little bit and we have to listen to each other and we have to be willing to share what our concerns are, our stakeholders' concerns, and that's okay. We're going to run into some challenging conflicts along the way, and it's just part of the journey and that's what you have to do to get from here to there, and that's the part that is probably the most challenging part. If you do that well, though, all the other pieces seem to go more smoothly right.

Jasmine Ahmed: 43:03

Right, and then if you create a brand, if you create a reputation where you were there to actually help people solve for their hurdles and their roadblocks and you do what you say and you commit to it, you start end up building an intangible asset of where people are going to be more open to listening to you.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 43:27

Yeah, you're building a culture and you're reinforcing the values of the culture and how you're doing the transformation. And you're reinforcing the values of the culture and how you're doing the transformation Right and you're getting people to change habits along the way that are consistent with the values Right, as well as getting the end result Right.

Jasmine Ahmed: 43:41

Right. Do it with. Do it with empathy and don't give people lip service like that.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 43:50

Do what you say you're going to do. People see that from a mile away.

Jasmine Ahmed: 43:52

Yeah, they will see it from a mile away, and even if they don't see it right away, you lose credit. It doesn't work in the long run. If you really want sustainable change to take place, don't give people lip service. Do what you say you'll do.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 44:08

Right, very good. Well, I want to transition to a little bit, because AI is a big thing right now, right, and it's affecting the transformation process. You're incorporating this. A lot of changes right now are happening around this emerging technology, early successes in its applications, in the process, with what you do. Is there anything you'd like to say about that? Where AI is helping with this transformation, is it taking off the stuff that allows for better conversations to happen between us, because we don't have to worry about that? What exactly has been the effect and the impact and the positive impact of AI on this transformation process?

Jasmine Ahmed: 44:53

Well, that's the million-dollar question, right? Because I think it's completely in flight right now. So I would say it would be a little bit unfair for me to say that this is the impact it has had right, but do I see the impact being instrumental? Yes, how quickly will it be instrumental? That will depend on our change journey as a society.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 45:21

Yes, that's for sure.

Jasmine Ahmed: 45:24

Jenny, this happened when RPA came to life as well. Everyone jumps on the shine little toy, and I think-. And RPA stands for.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 45:37

What does RPA stand for?

Jasmine Ahmed: 45:39

RPA Robotic Process Automation.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 45:42

Awesome. For those that didn't know it, that's great.

Jasmine Ahmed: 45:45

I think the impact of Gen AI is far more pronounced than RPA Robotic Process Automation, is far more pronounced than RPA robotic process automation, but I think the change journey is also going to be even more pronounced. No sorry, gen AI assistants are not going to take over the world. Our value proposition is still our human capital, our original idea, but I think what we need to invest in is, while more and more of our talent needs to be equipped and armed with Gen AI and prompt engineering as a skill, for example, we also need to arm them with a higher degree of EQ skills and innovation skills, so that they can then lean into the Gen AI and elevate the value that they as individuals bring to the table as well. Right, the example that I use is you know, on LinkedIn, you can now have a Gen AI assistant. Create a post for you, right, which is great.

Jasmine Ahmed: 47:19

Increases cycle time, right, and should people be leveraging? Yes, they should absolutely be leveraging it, but that's just the starting point. What we should be doing is leverage that to increase your cycle time. Leverage that to get some of your data and facts and points pulled together. Leverage that for grammar, leverage that for this and that, but then make it authentic, right.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 47:45

There you go. That's right, exactly right.

Jasmine Ahmed: 47:48

Enrich it with your own original idea.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 47:51

Yeah.

Jasmine Ahmed: 47:51

Enrich it with creativity Right.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 47:54

We just don't need more information out there. We could generate tons of information through doing it just on autopilot, but when it's genuine and authentic, it reaches people's hearts and minds more effectively. Right, it's just the way it is.

Jasmine Ahmed: 48:08

You can, you know Right, we are social beings. We remember through stories. We remember, we make decisions, economic decisions, right, something I, something that is very number driven um, most, uh, financial transactions are emotional and, um, you, when I'm, when I'm, you know I. The analogy that I use sometimes is you know, many of our I assume many of your viewers are homeowners. I know, I myself am, and this is the one example I personally suffer from each and every time.

Jasmine Ahmed: 48:48

You know, when you've got a leak in your house and you bring and you, someone comes over and gives you an estimate and they tell you that, hey, you know, I can fix it for you for less than five hundred dollars. And then you ask them they're like, ok, so is it going to happen again? And they tell you, well, I can't guarantee, because your roof looks a little, you know, aged you may. You know it may happen again. Know, aged you may. You know it may happen again. And then you ask the guy they're like okay, so how much should I? How much does it cost me to replace the new roof? And it's thousands of dollars. And long behold, you walk out buying the new roof for thousands of dollars. You go from 500 to thousands of dollars because of that emotional security that you're seeking for and that emotional insurance policy that you're looking for, despite the fact that the numbers are much larger. Right.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 49:42

Well, it goes back to our values. If security is one of our top values, and you know that's going to drive that decision right, that's an emotional decision.

Jasmine Ahmed: 49:52

Right, it's an emotional decision. Right, it's emotional decision. It goes back to all the work you do in transformation.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 49:55

It's like the hardest work is getting the emotions aligned, getting the values aligned.

Jasmine Ahmed: 50:02

Once that happens, everything else is one. Or when you're trying to teach your child financial discipline and you're constantly saying well, do you really need it or do you want it?

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 50:12

Exactly exactly.

Jasmine Ahmed: 50:14

So, and what is it? Most purchases are actually wants versus needs.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 50:20

Oh, absolutely Absolutely. I'm scared to look at my percentage, that's for sure. I mean and this is a big question that everybody asks but do you have any concerns about the rapid deployment of AI, how it's already out of the bar and it's affecting everything, how it might impact us, and if so, what do you think we have to do to kind of not put a tamper on the value it's providing, but also keep an eye on some of the dangers of it, of it.

Jasmine Ahmed: 50:50

My biggest personal concern is one when it comes to elevating and rewiring our people. Upskilling not rewiring, I mean, but upskilling, helping our talent. That and also some of the governance around it, be it within the organization or even outside of the organization. What is responsible AI? What are the security rights? I think it's the more of the non-technical elements that we need to ramp up the speed of it.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 51:34

I think, yeah, I think. Elon Musk talks about the importance of getting a head of regulation on it or supporting structures around it, so that we can put some guardrails around to protect ourselves.

Jasmine Ahmed: 51:46

Right, right, and I get to you know, how do we get there? I do question whether digital strategy should be business-led versus tech-led, because some of the things that I think we're falling behind actually sit outside of technology.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 52:09

Yeah, absolutely. Can you say a little bit more about that? Just a couple words.

Jasmine Ahmed: 52:17

Right. So if you take digital literacy right, so when a business solving for digital literacy, upskilling our talent to equip it, that is a business problem to be solved on. How do we elevate our talent with more creative skill sets in a parallel to helping them become better at prompt engineering skills, for example? How do we, as an organization, ensure that we have the right policies and controls? How do we, as it relates to Gen AI, in our contracts and relationships with our customers and partners, how do we ensure that Gen AI matters are addressed with an appropriate level of risk right, so that we can still reap the benefits of it? So those are just some things that I feel like we have been falling behind and not keeping pace with the technology, and many of those activities have nothing to do with the technology itself. They're not technology problems. They're business problems that need focus and need to be addressed.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 53:45

Yeah, well, those outcomes should drive it right, absolutely.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 53:51

Just a couple more questions and we'll be wrapping up here, but you know, this is a big one and you know, again, I'm asking you to kind of step into like kind of the territory of what leaders have to prepare for for the future. You know, if you look at what we need from leaders in the future of leadership and organizations, what's the call to action do you think executive leaders need to be thinking about in their own development as leaders, in their own impact as leaders, that you see that we should start looking at that now. I don't know, maybe it's more of. We have to take the real development of leadership more seriously and help people get to that in themselves. So we have more people that are delivering and expressing that. But I just wanted to see what you would say about what do you think that is or those things are.

Jasmine Ahmed: 54:43

I would say both leadership and people managers putting people development, talent development in the forefront. People managers putting people development, talent development in the forefront. Getting away from a culture of creating people managers with limited people development skills.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 55:04

Yes. Hallelujah, we don't live in a society where you can put people development secondary talent development. Yeah, it's so true.

Jasmine Ahmed: 55:35

Yes, that comes top of my mind and leadership in general is being more authentic and living the values that we want our people to live. Yes, you know, it goes back to the old saying that children do what they see. Their parents do, not what they're being told to do.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 55:54

Yeah, Well said, Both really on point. And again it goes back to something I said earlier. I think sometimes executives are moving so fast to get to the holy grail that they miss what will help them have a good today or a good quarter or a good year. And a lot of it has to do with nurturing that people's side of the business. And that will go you pay me now or pay me later, as a lawyer say. You cannot do that and then you're going to have more problems down the road. Or you could do that and knowing that the human you know, the ability to channel, focus and inspire the human spirit gets more things done than any great plan. Right, yes, you know you need a plan, but if you're overemphasizing the details and the tactics and all that, you're missing the boat. Because, as a people, as you said so eloquently in so many ways today, are the focus, are the things that are going to get us there, Right?

Jasmine Ahmed: 57:03

Anything final words you want to add just to close out today and just to feel complete in your sharing and you know, just to feel complete and you're sharing, I think, as we, as for any leaders, any leaders, you know it's a yes, you know leaders, more and more are strained, time is difficult, but once you've made a choice to lead people, to manage people, you've taken on a responsibility. And with that responsibility, with that role, comes certain responsibilities, absolutely.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 57:53

And taking that responsibility, to heart and very seriously. Yeah, well said Well. I want to thank you so much for sharing your insights with us today. I mean about leadership, culture, organizational transformation. It's been really such an enlightening conversation. I know our listeners gained a lot from you being on the show today, so really thank you for spending the time with me today. I really appreciate it.

Jasmine Ahmed: 58:11

Thank you, dave, really enjoyed the conversation.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 58:14

Yeah, and I want to thank everybody for you know. I want to thank Jasmine again for coming and spending the time. This is really really, really good. And thank everybody for tuning in as part of this journey with us your time and attention to listeners' time and attention means the world to me and if you found today's discussion valuable, I really would like to encourage you to share about the show and you can see on the bottom of the screen if you're watching this in video format. If you click that link, it'll take you to the share page, front Phase Under Fire, which you can send to friends.

David Craig Utts, Leadership Alchemist: 58:48

It talks about the show and talks about the 16 different channels that we are currently presenting the show and talks about the 16 different channels that we are currently presenting the show on and hopefully will expand over time. And I you know I really just again can't say enough about, you know, people taking the time, like Jasmine, to come on these shows. We want to do them justice and, you know, make sure that these gems that are shared get out to other executives out there, and I want to again thank you for everybody coming to listen to the show. Until next time, keep leading with purpose, making an impact and focusing on your people, as Jasmine so eloquently shared with us today, and I hope you have a great rest of your day. This is David Utz, on Phased Under Fire, signing off for now. Have a great rest of your day. This is David Utz, on Phased Under Fire, signing off for now. Have a great rest of your day.