Speaker 1: 0:11

Welcome to Unfazed Under Fire, a podcast designed to elevate your leadership and amplify your impact. Each episode offers valuable insights to help you transform your vision into reality, cultivate high-performing cultures that attract top talents, and navigate the complexities of today's uncertain, chaotic world with confidence and clarity. Now tuning into your needs, here's your host and moderator, seasoned executive coach and leadership alchemist, david Craig-Utz.

Speaker 2: 0:47

Welcome back to Unfazed Under Fire. I'm David Craig Utz, leadership alchemist, your host and moderator. Now. This show is committed to empowering executives to amplify their impact, gain fresh, actionable insights and build the resilience needed to survive in today's unpredictable, chaotic world. We feature two types of guests on the show thought leaders in leadership development, organizational culture and team dynamics, offering strategies designed to tackle real executive challenges. And seasoned executives who have embraced their own leadership journeys and understand that the true drivers of organizational value are people and culture. And actually we have both on the show today and one in Sabi, so I'll talk in a minute about introducing him.

Speaker 2: 1:29

At the heart of the show is the pursuit of pioneering breakthroughs in leadership and culture development, ensuring that you, as a leader, fulfill your core purpose, and that is to create an environment that inspires your talent to deliver extraordinary results that are aligned with your vision, mission and KPIs. Leadership development research has also proven that authentic leadership is ignited from within an individual as they gain self-mastery. Now, mastering yourself is the foundation that gives you clarity, confidence and presence to lead others effectively. And in today's disruptive world, self-mastery isn't optional. It's essential. When the unexpected arises, it's your inner strength, presence and confidence that will guide you through any challenge you can face, and by leading from the inside out, you unlock the power of collaboration with others, sparking the unity and performance needed to achieve remarkable results for your organization.

Speaker 2: 2:21

Now, today, I'm really pleased to be joined by Sabi Warwick, the CIO of Clackamas College in Portland, oregon. Sabi is not only a well-respected CIO. He's also become a global thought leader and influencer on leadership, business strategy and project management, and in his extensive career in both the public and private sectors, he's guided organizations, teams and customers through immense changes in business and technology, and during this time, he's also helped those organizations overcome disruptive challenges, teams and customers through immense changes in business and technology, and during this time, he's also helped those organizations overcome disruptive challenges that technology can only bring. Now, as a CIO and CISO of Clackamas College, he continues to lead and partner with those in his organization to transform and solve the complex issues of technology modernization.

Speaker 2: 3:03

Now, as I said, he's also a keynote speaker and trainer, and he describes his message as being inspiring, engaging, energetic and actionable, whether he's engaging an audience on the stage or virtually. So get ready right. He has a simple mission of helping and inspiring others, which I think is great and it's known for making a memorable impact wherever he goes. And I see it all the time on LinkedIn. All your pictures with your teams and everything.

Speaker 2: 3:28

It's great. You know you've been awarded for your efforts as well. You were named Global Technology on the list of Global Technology and Leadership Leaders who Matter list. I didn't get that right. Let me say that again Global Leadership and Technology Executives who Matter list in 2021. And the Higher Education IT Executive of the Year Award in 2022. So congratulations on those. So, Savi, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3: 3:56

I don't know if I left anything important out or if you had anything to add to that. No, thank you so much, david. It's like man pressure is on right With the long list right, so I have to match that level now.

Speaker 3: 4:06

No, thank you very much for this opportunity. I think one thing which I want to add to that is I'm very passionate about building a community, so that's why I'm engaged with a few other organizations. I'm the past president of PMI Portland Chapter. I'm currently the president of Sim Portland Chapter. So if you're an IT leader, if you're an IT manager, that's the organization which you need to join. So, great community, great opportunity to give back. I totally enjoy that, and I'm also, since I'm a speaker, so I'm part of National Speakers Association.

Speaker 2: 4:40

Oregon Chapter as well. That's a great organization, yeah, yeah, and I would say, building community right now is so important. I think we're in a world that needs and is craving community, and community seems like it's breaking down, so it's great that you are. I also believe in that as well, and it's great that you're doing that community building Well. As with all my first-time guests, I'd really like you to talk about your career journey in your own words.

Speaker 2: 5:08

We'll get into the detail about your great work as a CIO and your passion in the work of leadership development. Before we go there, I just want to focus on the basics. What drew you to the tech field? How did you get there? How did the highs and lows in your career direct you, because we have these circuitous routes that we follow in our career that are very interesting.

Speaker 2: 5:29

And then I wanted to know when did that passion for leadership rise and, if so, if you could share a little bit about how that happened, as you move forward in your career.

Speaker 3: 5:38

Yeah, no, definitely. Thank you. I have fascinating stories to share related to my journey. I was born in India. I was born in the most perfect city in the world and if you don't know that, you need to go to Google and search for the most perfect city and you will see a study done by BBC in 2016 and said this is the most perfect city. I will give it to you. It's called Chandigarh. So in India, growing up over there, there were only two places you can go Either you can become a doctor or you can become an engineer. Those are the two things and I picked up engineering and basically computer engineering, and there was science behind that, and it's not like I was passionate about computers or anything like that. I'm going to be very real with you. I think, growing up in India, you will see a lot of challenges in terms of the water wasn't coming for 24 hours. You will get water maybe four hours in the morning and four hours in the evening. You will have electricity cuts in the midst of hot summer. So the motivation.

Speaker 2: 6:41

And there's monsoon season. You got to deal with monsoon season.

Speaker 3: 6:44

Yeah. So the motivation was okay, what is that field which can give you that comfort where there is at least 24 hours of running water and there is 24 hours of running electricity and when it gets hot you have an air conditioning? Because the things we take for granted here, that was a luxury back in India when I was growing up, right. So guess what? Computer science is that field where you need running water and running electricity and everything is a very air-conditioned environment. And at that time it was just an emerging opportunity. I wanted to ride that wave and I said, okay, this is the field which I'm going to pick and I'm going to go into computer science. So that's how I got into that.

Speaker 3: 7:34

So I came to the United States in the year 2003. First one in my family to come here, new one, and I started looking for a management job. Because back in India I worked for Indian multinational firm called L&T Infotech. Back in Mumbai I worked for GE Capital. Over there I was assistant manager of software development. So I love that management piece on there, especially in technology. So I started looking for a management job and apparently I applied for about 50 positions and nobody gave me that opportunity and I was like, oh my God, this is not helping. So I met this guy. He was a professor at a university. Of course he said you need to get some education here, that will help you. So I went to do my master's in engineering and technology management Again very, very connected with that technology piece and that management piece.

Speaker 3: 8:26

And then, once I did my master's, I went back again into looking for that management job but always was rejected because said you do have experience managing teams, but you don't have experience managing US teams. And I was like, okay, that's interesting. That was a barrier which I had to cross. So I started again from the interesting. You know, that was a barrier which I had to cross. So I started again from the very basics as a software developer and I was doing some consulting. And then I had my son and my wife said no more consulting, you need to settle down. Good job, good job, right, I don't want you to fly East Coast, west Coast, you know all those things. And so I joined City of Portland in 2005 as a software developer and did that for about three and a half years.

Speaker 3: 9:15

And then I always wanted to again that passionate about management. Right, I always wanted to be in that manager role, to be in that manager role. And I started looking at individuals within my organization at City of Portland and said, okay, who are those emerging leaders? Who are those stars? Right, in any organization you have these stars. Everybody talks about them, right? Everybody says these are the folks who get things done, these are the folks who are building the community. Taking everybody, you give them anything and they will get it done. I was like, who are those folks in my organization? I identified three of those folks and I said what is one common thing between those three? If I want to be like them, what is that one common thing? Can you guess, david? What was that one common thing among those three people?

Speaker 2: 10:05

Let me guess. Could it be that they were leaders?

Speaker 3: 10:08

They were definitely leaders in that leadership role.

Speaker 2: 10:12

What was it? What was the you? Just, I'll stop guessing, I'll let you finish. Okay, I'll let you finish.

Speaker 3: 10:18

So it's not a very conventional answer. All three had a signature line that said PMP Ah, project management and I was like, okay, what is PMP? So I digged a little bit more deeper into that.

Speaker 2: 10:35

You struck gold on that one.

Speaker 3: 10:36

Yeah, I was like it's project management certification. All were PMP certified and I said, okay, that's great, if I want to be like them, I need to get my PMP certification. Very brilliant. So in 2008, august 25th I still remember the date when I passed my PMP exam, because that's a grueling exam Four hours. You don't want to fail that exam and go and get that exam again.

Speaker 3: 11:04

So I passed that exam and then an opportunity came at City of Portland for a project manager. So that's where I transitioned from being a software developer doing all the development into project management. And this is also a critical time for me, because this was also a nervous time, because for almost 10 years I've been doing software development Okay, and now I'm transitioning into a totally sort of a new field where I had no idea about. So I said, how can I still keep connected to the software development part? You know that I didn't want to get those skills go away. And then suddenly I find myself okay, you know what did I get myself into? And that is the time when I started teaching. So I became a joint professor at a community college and started teaching programming languages. That was the motivation right. So programming languages, that was the motivation, right.

Speaker 3: 12:05

So transition into project management and I loved it. It was great. I felt like, okay, these are my folks in there. I love to get together, get the team together and deliver on those transformations. So that was the shift in there and I did it for a few years about three and a half years and then I became a business relationship manager. We call them technology business consultant right, you look at a business line, you look at their challenges and how technology can solve those problems. Right, so that was a great learning experience. I was given a portfolio about six different bureaus at City of Portland fire, transportation, other bureaus, right. So you're looking at the challenges which they're facing, which really helped me to look from a business perspective not from technology, from a business perspective and how technology can help solve those problems. I did that for some time and then I became an application development manager, like the manager which I always wanted to become. You got to the promised land.

Speaker 3: 13:08

I got to the promised land and then I was like, I was thinking inside. I was like, am I done? Like, for six months, I was just in that reflection mode right, it's like, am I done? This is all I wanted when I came to United States. I got it. What's next after that? What's next Now? What? Yeah, right. So a lot of self-reflection. It came back to me that I was always so connected with technology still always so connected about programming, languages, those core tools and everything, and that was a reflection which helped me to realize that, okay, it's not about technology, it's about people. So I don't want to remain in technology if I have the ability to be that leader and lead those transformations. It's never, ever, 100% about technology. So that shift I made in about, I will say, 2013,.

Speaker 3: 14:07

2014, timeframe when I said okay put me in any role you want, I'm going to be successful, because it's not about technology, it's all about people. So I came back to lead not came back, actually came back to the PMO and this time I became a project management office manager. A PMO manager Did time. I became a project management office manager. A PMO manager Did that for about a few years and in, I will say, february 2018, my boss, who was the CIO or CTO at CTO Portland during my one-on-one check-in, comes to me and says Sabi, have you ever jumped from a plane?

Speaker 3: 14:40

I was like no. He was like are you interested? I was like no. He was like are you interested? I was like no, I have fear of heights. He was like guess what? I would love to assign this project to you. And that project was implementing City of Portland's permit system. City started that project in 2008 and 2018. It had failed multiple times. Previous project managers were either fired or put in different roles. Even one of the bureau director was let go. So that was definitely jumping from a plane.

Speaker 2: 15:13

And I said yes to that.

Speaker 3: 15:14

But there's a different story why I said yes. So long story short two years. We went live on February 10th 2020, right before the pandemic, Lucky us. And then I wasn't having much fun at City of Portland. I moved into an interim business solutions division manager and then this opportunity came along at Clackamas Community College. I've been teaching at that time for almost 12 years at Portland Community College, so I was passionate about mentoring, about students and everything. So this opportunity lined up very nicely and it was like 10 minutes away. I didn't have to go to the downtown Portland. I said, okay, this is a great opportunity, I'm going to jump on that. So that was where I made the transition to a chief information officer and a chief information security officer at Clackamas Community College.

Speaker 2: 16:02

Really beautiful at Clackamas Community College, really beautiful. I mean, that whole story again shows that when you know that you had this tenacity and desire for something to occur and you didn't allow the obstacles that emerged, it's kind of like whack-a-mole sometimes when you're going down that path, like what do I do? This doesn't work, this doesn't work, but I got to do it and you kept going. So you had this internal vision of what was possible, you know, and then you got you landed into that in that business relationship role and that I would imagine the lessons there was. It began to be make you realize the importance of influence. And how do you influence? I would imagine, right, how do you have conversations to understand the concerns of a business leader that might not understand the technology level that you understood? Right, absolutely. And then then you, then you found the project management thing. It's understand the concerns of a business leader that might not understand the technology level that you understood right, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 16:53

And then you found the project management thing. It's very, and then here you are right. Yeah, you know. One thing which I will add to that is how do you and that's where most of the leaders lack is, how do you? You have a great leadership skill, but how do you build a leadership skill about influence, how you can influence individuals, and I learned that skill by joining these nonprofit organizations. So here's the secret for you.

Speaker 3: 17:19

There are three kinds of leadership. The first, in terms of complexity, number three comes in. If you are like a functional manager, right, you have a boss, you're a supervisor, you're an IT manager or any kind of manager, you have the power or you have the authority to get work done. That's at number three. It's not easy because it's all about people. It's not easy. But at number two comes in is project leader, where you don't have any power, you don't have any authority, but guess what? You're still responsible for delivering on those projects. You have to get those projects done within time, within budget. That's where you build your skills of relationships.

Speaker 3: 18:02

How do you motivate your team? How do you inspire your team? How do you inspire your team? Can you actually inspire your team? But the most difficult kind at number one comes in when you're a volunteer leader, because as a volunteer leader, you're leading volunteers. All you can do is you can influence them. That's the only power which you have. So I became the president of PMI Portland Chapter and that was a great learning skill or platform for want to sharpen your skills, to become an influential leader. Join a nonprofit organization, whether it's PMI, sim or any other organization. Be on the board, become the president, and that's where you're going to see what kind of leader you are.

Speaker 2: 18:58

Right, because that's the highest form of talent. Retention right. Volunteers can just walk out and not show back up again. There's nothing you can do about it, right? You can nothing. Retention right. Volunteers can just walk out and not show back up again. There's nothing you can do about it. Right? You can nothing do, right, they don't have a paycheck, they don't have benefits.

Speaker 2: 19:13

There's nothing holding them there except for their passion of being there. So you have to spark and inspire. That's really well said. Something else that's in your story that I just touch on with. You know your firstgeneration immigrant into this country right, us citizens and you said something about. You know a lot of us take for granted what we have. I'm just wondering what you've been noticing, as you know, the day that you got your US citizenship and how that felt and what you appreciate about that, because I think that's a story that we need to hear a lot these days. Just appreciation, yeah, sometimes an underappreciation, a complaint about certain things that, yeah, they're important, but at the end of the day, do you realize the land you're standing on and the opportunities you have here? Anything you'd like to say about that? I'll just open the mic to you on that one.

Speaker 3: 19:59

Absolutely. This is a land of opportunity and this is a land of opportunity, you know, and this is a land of blessings. Right, you walk in. I'm just telling you 750 million people across this globe don't have access to clean drinking water. You know when you're taking that sip of water. Be grateful about it that you have access to that. You know, more than 20,000 people across this globe are dying of hunger every single day because there are no opportunities available to them where they can feed themselves or they can feed their family In the United States of America. If you are dying of hunger, right, please do something about it, because there's so much opportunity out there which is available to you. Work hard, work smarter. You can make magic happen here. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 20:58

I mean, here's a guy that just decided to start a podcast. I get to do that. You can't do that everywhere, right? You don't have the technology, the infrastructure, the training, youtube, all that stuff is available, right, to teach you all this stuff, yeah, and you're having a podcast and suddenly the electricity goes away.

Speaker 3: 21:15

Boom, right there or your cable connection or your internet connection doesn't have that bandwidth which you need to have this conversation and provide that experience to your end users.

Speaker 2: 21:30

I love it. It is a land of blessings. I really appreciate you saying that. Well, let's get into what you love. You know you're recognized as a global thought leader on leadership. Given that, how would you describe your leadership philosophy and what were some of the defining moments that shaped that philosophy? You shared some of them already and maybe you say I shared this, but what are some other things that happened that have shaped the way that? Just first share a little bit about your philosophy. Go there, yeah.

Speaker 3: 22:00

When I talk about leadership, I usually say you need to stand out as a leader, right, because there is so much going on. When I talk about leadership, I usually say you need to stand out as a leader, right, because there's so much going on. If you're doing a great work and if you're not sharing the great work which you're doing, you're going to be hidden because you think your boss is going to notice that each day. They are so busy in their daily work they're not going to pay attention to the amazing work which you're doing. And then you know, the heartburn starts. You know I'm doing a great job but nobody's paying attention to me. You know the culture here. You have to adapt to the culture, the culture in the United States of America. If you come from somewhere outside I come from Asia, right from India the culture over there is very different as compared to culture here in the United States of America. Culture over there is very different as compared to culture here in the United States of America. There, if you say anything to your professor or anything, at the time when I was growing up, that was not even allowed, so I was conditioned to not speak to the superiors when somebody says something, a superior, a boss, a manager, you don't have to, you know, put them down. You don't, you can't even question them, right? That's the culture, that's our upbringing where I was brought in, and coming over here it's a very different culture. Yeah, so that was the piece that some of those learnings, right.

Speaker 3: 23:19

So I applied for a position at City of Portland as that business relationship person, right, and I was in an interview and they're all internal, right, I'm an internal candidate. And there were seven people on that panel and I had worked with each of those seven people and everybody knew about the work which I've done. But I flunked that interview, you know why? Because that my culture got hold of me saying, if I say anything about the great work I am doing, am I bragging myself? So that got hold of me from the back and I couldn't.

Speaker 3: 23:54

And all these questions are like why do I have to sell the work which I'm doing to these folks who already know? But guess what? I flunked that interview. I didn't get that role To these folks who already know. But guess what? I flunked that interview. I didn't get that role Right. I went to my boss' office and I said you know, this is a challenge which I'm experiencing, especially in internal recruitment, right External, yes, they don't know about you, you can go and sell yourself Internally. That was a challenge for me. So he coached me, he mentored me and he said Sabia will help you. That was a turning moment for me where I said, okay, I'm going to stand out.

Speaker 2: 24:32

Yes.

Speaker 3: 24:32

I'm going to stand out and I'm going to tell about all the great stuff which I'm doing, because I'm not bragging, I'm humble about it, but people need to know this because they get inspired by you. So my goal is to inspire my folks out there who can see me up there and say you know, sabi can do it, we can do it too. Right, so that was a turning moment. But when I talk about standout leadership this is an acronym I use I use the acronym Purple Cow. Okay, so think about this. There's a farm and there are a lot of cows there. There are some are big, some are small, some are big black spots, some are big white spots. As you're passing through that farm, all you're going to see is cows. Now let's put a purple cow right there in the middle. Would that purple cow get noticed?

Speaker 2: 25:21

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 25:23

So how somebody can become that purple cow. So those are the principles which I talk about. And purple P stands for having a positive mindset, u stands for unchaining yourself, r is relationships, p is being persistent, not giving up, l is about that leadership, that Sherpa leadership which you need to have, and E is about energy. What energy are you leading with? And I can go in details about all those things, and we're going to spend the rest of the day talking about leadership. That's the piece. The crux of leadership is you need to lead and you need to shift your mindset. It's not about you, it's about your team, the folks which you're supporting, the folks which you're leading, the folks you're transforming.

Speaker 2: 26:12

Yeah, and it's really like well, you, basically we all are bright lights, right. It's not about my light gets brighter and I be the purple cow Everybody sees me. But, as a leader, it's also making sure that you're lighting up those around you, right, that you're inspiring those around you to be the same light. It's not about I'm going to be big and you're going to be small. No, I want everybody. The more bigger I get, the bigger other people get, the better we do, right.

Speaker 3: 26:37

Absolutely. We need to lift each other up right. That's a core piece, the philosophy of my belief system.

Speaker 2: 26:46

Yes, yeah, very well said, very well said, yeah, I, and juxtaposition that though a little bit, then you seem to move into like you need to be of service to your team. So is that kind of the servant leadership aspect of your philosophy? There's, I have to shine in order for me and there's a certain thing, I think, that I see a lot of people that I coach, that are in finance or IT do they don't necessarily go back to the customer in the end and say did we do a good job? They don't recognize the importance of that, the importance of not just so that you get backed up, but when the customer says it out loud, the internal customer oh you, all of a sudden, it was you that helped me. And again it goes back to their busy people, right, when they declare you did a good job, or here's how we get improved. Whatever you are seen in a different light, right?

Speaker 3: 27:46

Absolutely so yeah, yeah, self, you know that's continuous improvement is part of that piece. Right there. You, if you're not improving, if you're not changing, if you're not getting better, you're going to be stale. So, getting that feedback from your customers and IT, you know, yes, we're going to have challenges, we're going to make blunders, we're going to have issues, we don't have the team which we need, we don't have the budget we need, and we're going to have challenges. We're going to drop balls sometimes, but it's okay. But the goal is let's go back and apologize and say you know, this is the reason why it's happening and let's work together to solve this challenge. We're going to learn from it and we're going to be better next time.

Speaker 2: 28:30

Right, everybody learns in that situation, you know, and sometimes we're not getting or have we taken the time to understand the requests that we receive?

Speaker 1: 28:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:41

Or we assume they articulated it clearly.

Speaker 1: 28:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:45

And you know, as I say to people all the time, people don't hear what you say, they hear what they interpret you say Right, are you checking out that? So there's a lot of richness right there.

Speaker 3: 28:57

Yeah, yeah, because here's the thing IT systems are not best communication tools, right? If you have a ticketing system or if you have an email where people think that's the best communication tool out there, that's not the best system out there to communicate. The best system to communicate is when you have a one-on-one conversation with the other individual on the line and say, okay, this is what I think, what you're saying. Is that the right thing? Because the email which is going to come to you, the way you're going to read or interpret that, is based on what's going on in your mind, right, or how you are conditioned for that. So you have to take that extra step which you know. You said go back and have that conversation. Okay, is this actually what you need? And this is how I can provide? Do you think this is going to help you?

Speaker 2: 29:49

Right, very, good, very good. Now, in your roles as CIO and CISO, you've done a lot of technology change and, as you know and you intimated, it can be very disrupting to organizations. When you're changing, you're really forcing habits to change very quickly and we don't like to change our habits as human beings. I recognize that I'm like my nervous system doesn't like this. You're asking me to do something. I'm confused. All that stuff starts to happen. Right, take us into your project management cap and your leadership cap. How do you integrate leadership to navigate teams and organizations through that disruption while ensuring you're preserving and empowering accountable and collaborative culture?

Speaker 2: 30:29

You can say like what are some of the principles you think about as you're going into a project that's going to be massive disruption? Yes, and you don't want people like running out the door.

Speaker 3: 30:44

Yeah, you're going to have some folks who are going to definitely run out of the doors for sure, because they don't like that change. And it's okay. It's okay, you know, it's their belief system and what they think is good for them, and that's not where I'm going to stop them. But the thing is, organizational change management is such a huge piece for any kind of transformation which you're doing in your organization. So I have a framework which is called VIRSA. Virsa is coming from you know, it's again an acronym. I love acronyms, by the way.

Speaker 1: 31:13

Yeah, I can tell.

Speaker 3: 31:13

Purple cow.

Speaker 2: 31:14

I love acronyms by the way.

Speaker 3: 31:15

Yeah, I can tell Purple cow. Virsa is a Punjabi term back in India. It's your roots, right? So Virsa is. It starts with V.

Speaker 3: 31:22

Stands for vision Right, as a leader. If you're not providing that vision, why we are doing this, whatever change you're going to do, it's going to fail. Right, that's going to fail. Right, that's going to fail. I stands for incentives. If you don't provide the incentive that, why for somebody to change? Why would they change? Exactly?

Speaker 3: 31:50

It's an interesting conversation sometimes you have with some union folks you try to implement a change, they don't like it. But then, if union folks you try to implement a change, they don't like it. But then if you say you know we're going to add X number of dollars in your paycheck, guess what? That's an incentive. They then get behind that change and said, yes, we want that. So if you don't do incentives, it's going to stop. Then R stands for resources. So if you're not providing the resources which are needed for resources, so if you're not providing the resources which are needed for that change, if you're not providing the team which is needed to help with that change, your change is going to fail. Then comes S. S stands for skills. If your team doesn't have the skill set to go through that change, your team is going to have that anxiety. They want to go through that change but they don't have the skill set. So that creates that stress, that anxiety within the organizations.

Speaker 2: 32:47

And they already have enough uncertainty with the change that it is. And then you're putting them into like I don't know if I have the competence to do this. On top of that, you are setting yourself up to fail.

Speaker 3: 32:57

That's absolutely well said, you are right. So are you training your team members who are going to support that system to go through that next level? Right, are you training your end users, because it's a huge change for them. Even if going from one screen to another screen, you don't even know how individuals that's a change, because they have been using that system maybe for 10, 15 years. They can do it in sleep. But even changing one screen or one click, it's a change. It's a huge change. Maybe not for you. For IT people, it's like what? It's just a new screen. It's a change. It's a huge change. Maybe not for you. For IT people, it's like what? It's just a new screen, it's a new button. What's the problem with that? No, there's a huge problem for your end user because they have been in that mode for so many years.

Speaker 3: 33:44

And then A stands for action plan. What is your plan for that? And then there are so many models out there which can help you with that. Prosci has an ad card model. Right, creating that awareness, desire, knowledge, all those things right? Those are the kind of things you have to build that action plan within your change to help your organization go through that change.

Speaker 2: 34:11

Well said, and going back to the first one vision, what does that vision have to include to both create a picture of what life will be like when the change occurs, but also it's somehow inclusive of the stakeholders' concerns? What would you say? What are the qualities that you think are important to include as you're considering a vision for a project?

Speaker 3: 34:38

You know, one of the exercises, david, which I do with my team when they want to go through that help clarify that vision is backward imaging. So what backward imaging is? You're here right now, but think about this. When this change happens, you know, maybe six months, maybe one year later, close your eyes and think about what customers are going to say about you, what your stakeholders are saying about you. How do you want to feel about this change? And once people close their eyes and think about you know oh, you know, my end customer is very happy. It's less painful for them, it's solving their problems, making them more productive, it's reducing the number of tickets.

Speaker 3: 35:25

It's a combination of all those things which you can now bring back to now and say this is why we are doing this, this is the vision where we're going, this is why we are doing this, this is the vision where we're going, and then connect it with the purpose, the bigger purpose which you have or your organization has. Right, I'm at Clackamas Community College. Right, it's all about very student-focused. If we're implementing a change which is going to impact employees, eventually it's going to impact the students Because we as employees are supporting that students. That's the vision, that's the end goal which we need to be thinking about when we are looking at a change. That's how you do it.

Speaker 2: 36:06

Yeah, I mean that's what organizations many times in technical functions like finance, information technology, legal whatever they are, they are still intimately need to be intimately related to the customer experience. At the end of the day, that's what we're serving. So any change that affects an employee, the more you uplift, make the employee's job easier, help them understand how that can help them in doing their job, et cetera. The more buoyant they are when they're interacting with customers and students, or job, et cetera, the more buoyant they are when they're interacting with customers and students or whatever right.

Speaker 3: 36:42

That's the impact you're trying to have. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:47

Well, in your experience, as you look at both the CIO and CISO role, what would you say is the current state of leadership development in that field? You know it has certainly become light years, but would you say there's still room to grow in that. Is there still an undervaluing of those skills of leadership? Just to share a little bit of what your thoughts are in the field right now. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 37:15

And this is what I'm seeing in many organizations is, if you're good in technology, they elevate you to become that leader. But leadership 85% of our success comes from dealing with people and 15% success comes from our technology. Okay, so how good you are in building those skills within your organization as a leader? How good you are in actually building the trust which is a core for any organization, absolutely Essential, essential right To do anything. It's not about the ERP system, I'm not going to say it's not. It's not only the ERP system or your payroll system, or your finance system or your ticketing system or any other systems. Those matter.

Speaker 3: 38:11

But what matters more is how good you are in building that trust within your organization, building those relationships, because if you have effective relationships and that trust culture within your organization, speed of doing everything goes up and then your employees are much more happier, they have less stress. Yes, stress is always going to be there, but they can manage that stress. But if you don't have that trust, if you have a toxic culture, if you have a culture of micromanagement, if you're creating a culture of fear, right, because those things can help in short term maybe three months, four months but then you're going to see the repercussions of those. That's why many of these organizations you're going to see is quite quitting, right? People are just silently quitting. They're not even giving the reason. They are doing their job because they're stressed, but they are looking for another job, another opportunity. They have to feed their family, but they're not happy right now. So how you can shift from that culture of a scare culture to more a culture which cares?

Speaker 2: 39:28

That's the number one reason why people leave their job is because of how they're led and managed. Absolutely, it does add stress. So I tell leaders all the time you're either inspiring people so they go home and kiss their wives, or you're pulling them down and they want to kick the dog when they go home. Which one do you want to be creating? Yes, and the more they want to go home and kind of they're upset, the less they want to go to work, the more they're going to start doing what you're going to say Right. And the less they want to go to work, the more they're going to start doing what you're going to say Right. And that that is. That is there should be the motivating force for anybody to understand.

Speaker 2: 40:00

I love 85 percent of it is the people at 15 percent of the technology. I love that. I think that is so, so true. So, yeah, yeah. So you know you as as somebody that's out there, this sort of emerging tech leader. They're not quite CIO yet. Maybe they're moving into the C-suite. You know what have been some of the most, and you talked about maybe your volunteer work as an example of a very good way to develop your leadership. What would you say would have been the most enriching things you have done, that helped you grow as a leader most effectively.

Speaker 2: 40:37

That helped you kind of that. Had you had to face, you know, because you kind of have to face yourself in the process. Am I going to continue to hit my head against the wall because it hurts, or do I have to figure out how to do something different here? Because what I'm doing we've run into that, as you know, because you move from a kind of a director level that's kind of the middle range, like I'm leading teams but I'm still kind of an individual contributor and I still have that individual contributor mindset. But I'm transitioning. But when you get to the VP level you don't have that. You're much more. You've got to be in a leadership position. So just curious what you've done that has been most impactful for you in your career to develop as a leader career to develop as a leader.

Speaker 3: 41:19

I think one of the things which, if I look back, if I look at my experience you know, working in different divisions within technology really helped me to understand each of those things right. When I was a project manager I was managing projects which were related to PCI compliance or information security. I was in a project which was co-locating the data center, or you're making those changes or you're creating a server room. I was involved in those pieces. So, coming from a software development, I wasn't exposed to that piece in there. But that actually helped me to understand the different technologies because as a CIO, you should be, you shouldn't. If you're an expert in everything, then you're awesome, then you are the unicorn. But I haven't seen any expert in all of the things. So you need to be aware and intelligent to have those conversations in the different pieces from technology stack. So that really helped me. Then came the business relationship manager position right that, the tbc position. That helped me to shift my mindset not from technology but shift to more business side, how I can work with the business. That experience really helped me to elevate my skill set, to have those conversations with the business and understand where they're coming from. So it's very important to have those two experiences as part of your portfolio to build you to take on that role.

Speaker 3: 42:49

Then comes in dealing with challenges, Because as a CIO and a CISO, you're going to have you would have fire going on all the time. There are challenges happening, especially in cybersecurity, right, every single day there are so many challenges. Have you built the muscle to actually ability to lead the team during chaos? Because if you are the kind of person who's during chaos is going to become scary and chaotic and become toxic. Guess what? Not only are you going to take the project down or that emergency, you're going to take your team down as well. So, very important to build that muscle and I'm going to share a story with you, please, please. Important to build that muscle and I'm going to share a story with you.

Speaker 3: 43:37

Going back to that experience, when my boss came to me and said, sabi, have you jumped from a plane? I'm assigning you to this project. I immediately went into that fear zone. It's like why me Previous four were fired or put in different roles? I'm at the next one to be on the chopping block and then your friends don't help you, right? They come in and say, sabi, do you have a good relationship with your boss? Are you going to get fired? When are you going to get fired?

Speaker 2: 44:01

So Helpful friends yeah.

Speaker 3: 44:07

You know how it goes. So I immediately went into the fear zone and I started looking for excuses, an excuse to get out of that project, because I was, I was in that fear zone. It's like why me?

Speaker 2: 44:22

Yeah yeah, survival instinct takes over and say how do I escape? Fight or flight, right. How do I get the heck out of here?

Speaker 3: 44:28

There you go, right. So that instinct come in and we are wired for that right. So I was still wasn't sure what reason I'm going to give my boss to get out of that project. So I go and talk to my mentor, my coach, and I said you know, this is a highly politically motivated project. It's City of Portland's number one critical project. What reason should I give my boss to get out of it? Please give me a good reason, right, Solid reason, which will take me out.

Speaker 3: 44:58

And he said, Sabih, I know you, If anybody can do this, you can do this. And I was like no, no, no, no, no. You didn't get my question. Don't push me in, Get me out of this. And he was like, no, if anybody can do this, you can do this. And I was like, okay, this is not helping. So I come back home and talk to my wife, you know, looking for another excuse. I said you know, sweetheart, small kids they have games in the evening. I'm going to be late coming back home. It's going to put so much pressure on you. You have to do it. It's going to increase your workload, it's unfair.

Speaker 2: 45:34

It's unfair, honey, it's not fair for me.

Speaker 3: 45:36

It's not fair. Yeah, and she was like no, I see you doing this project, I will take care of the kids. And I'm like, oh my God, like still wasn't sure, like which, what reason I'm going to give tomorrow morning when I go back and meet him. And next Monday morning around 9 am, I received this email from my daughter which said Daddy, if a project has failed multiple times, it's a political mess. Here are the four things you can do. She's 10 years old, david.

Speaker 3: 46:12

She's a coach telling me how to run a complex project. You know, I stood up from my seat, I directly went into my boss office and I said you know what? I'm accepting this project and I'm doing it for my daughter, and there is no power in this world which will stop me in making this project successful. Wow, that's a beautiful story. So what we need is that strong. Why? Why are you doing something?

Speaker 2: 46:39

Absolutely Well, you actually talked about that. When you talked about coming to wanting to get that management job, there was a strong why and that's why you could have given up three or four times to get that right. There was a strong why. And then you found the PMP and how that changed. And then you had these other experiences. And here you are and in a certain way you know we don't have to have a vision for our whole life. That would be crazy, because we'd be completely disappointed if we had a vision for our whole life. How many things would we miss if we tried to figure all this out ahead of time? I mean short term. You have to have visions for projects. I get that, but long term, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 47:18

I totally agree with you. Growing up, I never in my life I had even vision that I will become a CIO. Right, okay, I was in technology field. Yes, the CIO is the end goal, the top right. Yes, you can dream about that. But then the interesting thing was I never thought I will ever become a keynote speaker.

Speaker 3: 47:41

So, 2013, I'm mentoring this individual at City of Portland and this was a mentoring program through City of Portland. It was a one-year-long program and every month we'll meet. I will share some of the tips and tricks how to become a successful leader, how do you build relationships, all those things, life lessons. And at the end of this program he comes to me and said Savi, these are great things, you should share it with the world. And I'm like what are you talking about? Like I've never, ever spoken on the stage in front of people like that. English is my second language. I can't even pronounce words correctly. And you want me to become a speaker? And he was like no. And you want me to become a speaker? And he was like no, you will be great if you do that. And I never thought. And here I am right now, 10 years later. Last week I was in Richmond, virginia, speaking to 700 folks.

Speaker 3: 48:51

On-site 700 folks. On-site, 700 folks. I went right after the governor of Virginia and I'm on the stage and I'm speaking in front of all those people and I got a feedback. 100% of those who provided me feedback about 170 of those loved my presentation. 99% want me to come back and speak again Now. Would I have ever imagined that as a kid, or even growing up? Never, never.

Speaker 2: 49:10

That's fulfilling your mission right Inspiring and uplifting right people.

Speaker 3: 49:14

Everything which I'm doing is very aligned with my purpose in life, and that's what gives me the energy to continue to do so much. It's because it doesn't take the energy out. It's feeding me, the energy which keeps me going. Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 49:31

Well, this is what people don't understand, I think, about purpose and vision and aspiration. It's not so much the mental articulation of it, that's the easy part it's the ability to keep going and using that motivation to keep going. But it's the energy that begins to come back to you as you begin to fulfill it, that enables you to expand the possibilities of fulfilling it. And it's like, it's almost like it's like the bottom of a tornado going up to the top right. You're like the more you do it, the more energy you get, the more, and maybe tornado is a bad metaphor for it. But you know, that's not the image that came to me. But the idea is it expands over time. As you get more energy, you see things more you could do.

Speaker 2: 50:17

So you know I try to, you know, influence my clients to understand the power of purpose is not just so. You have your purpose statement. I know what my purpose is. I mean that's nice, but it's for you, it's not for anybody else. Really, it's for you. Let your actions breathe your purpose, right. Actually, let your actions express what's your purpose and then they can guess what it is right Because they've experienced it. But it's that why that gets you going and it's the energy that comes from doing it that comes back to you, that reinforces. Yep, this is my purpose there it is, I just experienced it, so it makes me want to do more of it, right, and that somehow unlocks the human spirit that we don't talk about a lot, that is, that you can't see, but it's there, right? I don't know if that's fair to say lot.

Speaker 3: 51:04

that is that you can't see, but it's there, right? I don't know if that's fair to say, absolutely you can't see it, but it's right there and you can feel it and you can see. You can when you're meeting somebody, you can feel it in their hug or in their handshake, right, yeah, which are such a key things which we don't even take time to pay attention to that as leaders. It's like take a little bit more time, have a firm handshake, give that hug.

Speaker 2: 51:28

Do a high five.

Speaker 2: 51:30

This is all small things. Have a conversation about what's important to the other person, you know, and really listen, but don't listen for the words, Listen for that energy, Because you know we have like 8 billion people. Is it 8 billion now? Over 8 billion people on the planet, right, and it's like, as I say to people through a mentor that I heard, so I'm sharing this. It's not my quote, but one earth, 8.4 billion worlds. It's 8.4 billion expressions of that spirit. Absolutely Right. And, as a leader, your ability in the development of people and I just had a quote I put up on LinkedIn the other day that you know you know some enlightened leadership has emerged, a unique combination of finding their way Right and being part of that is one of the greatest gifts you give as a leader. Obviously, you want to deliver value to your organization. That's what you're paying for, but the gifts you give along the way are so many more Right.

Speaker 3: 52:38

This is so true. So I had a project and procurement specialist in my team. So I had a project and procurement specialist in my team and she joined. And when initially she joined, her goal was to retire in like four or five years. Right, she was close to her retirement. And then, about six months ago because then I started working with her, she was you know. So six months ago she said Sabi, I'm leaving this job and I'm leaving this job because of you. I was like okay, why? Like you know the first thing, again the negative thing comes. It's like what did I do? She was like you showed me something which I never saw in myself and you helped me find those opportunities you helped me to create, have the courage to pursue those opportunities which I didn't have the courage before. So, on, one way, this is a great, you know. One way, I'm like okay, what did I do? Like I have one of my most amazing stars leaving, but on the other side, I felt so happy for her yeah, it's hard to lose people.

Speaker 2: 53:51

It's hard to lose good people, but you also, you, you know, nobody held you back right when you made the decision. You wouldn't want to hold anybody back, you know yeah and I'm, I'm, I'm.

Speaker 3: 54:03

I have this philosophy that everything which is happening for you is happening for good. Yes, all the problems which you're having right now are helping to become stronger, to get you where you need to be, so that you can solve even bigger challenges and bigger problems absolutely.

Speaker 2: 54:33

I mean, I have a friend who's a songwriter, bob simon, and he has a song. It's not happening to you, it's happening for you and it's a beautiful thing that you know even some of our biggest crises in life and challenges that we face in life. If you look at the people that have and I want to talk about resilience for a moment with you Look at the people that are resilient and keep going and keep churning the milk into butter, if you will. You know, keep moving. Something remarkable comes when they hit the wall and they keep going. And sometimes it's life saying you have more in you than you think. So, therefore, you're going to be fired from this job, but because of that, you're going to find your purpose, or you might fail and fall on your face, but that's going to end up being a benefit or a blessing, right, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 55:23

We've all had experiences of that right so yeah, every time, every time, and I'm again.

Speaker 3: 55:32

This is a land of blessing, but I'm also blessed as well, yes, of course, so that all those challenges which came along the way is helping me to give back and, you know, build that community. Otherwise I wouldn't have that experience. If I have got the very first job I applied for here, I wouldn't be here. If I haven't gotten those 50 rejections, I wouldn't be here where I'm right now. I'm here because of all those things which happened in the last 20, 25 years here, beautifully.

Speaker 2: 56:01

Well, as we wrap up, I've got two questions. One is very open-ended, but the first one is you know you were talking a lot about resilience here too, and what is one of the most important lessons you learned about how to be a resilient leader, because you talked about it a moment ago but is there anything you do to maintain your own resilience and so that it's so that you have it's kind of like you have to have a well deposited, a lot of deposits in your heart, if you will, or in your being that you can withdraw from in those crazy times when you have to stay calm for your team or whatever so it's what do you, what have you learned at a couple things that help you become resilient, and then anything else you want to say to feel complete in our conversation today.

Speaker 2: 56:49

To wrap up, yeah.

Speaker 3: 56:51

No, you know, you have to build that resilience because most of the time we are on, we are conditioned and we are on that autopilot, right? So what are you doing to build that resilience every single day? So some of the ways which I do is there's something called positive intelligence. There's a book by Shirzad which talks about how you can use, how we have been using left side of the brain, where that judgment, anxiety, everything lives, overusing Right and how you can shift that and start using the right side of the brain even more right. Are you building that right side of the muscle even more so? That's one way of doing those.

Speaker 3: 57:35

Meditating is a great example of that Bringing your focus back and then meditating and bringing that focus again to the now, to your breath, anything, right? That's one way to get out of that autopilot which you're on all the time and then focus on that. Second is you have to give yourself, your body a shock in the sense by doing things which you don't do. Naturally, the growth happens when you're outside that comfort zone. So what are you doing to get out of that comfort zone? So here's a great example which I tell folks and I do that personally is when I'm taking that warm shower it's so comfortable and I tell myself comfortable and I tell myself, sabi, I'm turning this to cold and try it out.

Speaker 3: 58:32

If you try that exercise, just the thought of turning it to cold for your mind inside is going to give you so many excuses. No, don't do it, it's so warm, you're going to get sick. Sabi, you're going to do all those things right. So I intentionally do that, so I can continue to build that resilience and say you know what? I'm much more stronger than you. If I am going into a meeting, I tend to look for what is my comfortable spot, because that's where I feel the most comfortable and we all do right, that's how we're comfortable.

Speaker 2: 59:01

It happens you watch the pattern of a meeting and everybody sits in the same place too right, that's how we're comfortable.

Speaker 3: 59:04

It happens you watch the pattern of a meeting and everybody sits in the same place. Everybody sits in the same place, right? I intentionally don't sit there. I find the place which is giving me the more which will give me the more most uncomfortable place. I'm going to go and sit there because I want to give myself, build that resilience, saying I can do that. I'm still stronger than that weakness in me Every time I'm ready to park. Some days I park way out Because if you're parking you're going to always park at the same spot, at the same parking location, at the same place. But intentionally, some days I'm going to park somewhere else. But intentionally, some days I'm going to park somewhere else and at the end of the day I'm on autopilot and I will start walking to the same old place, not knowing I have parked somewhere else, and suddenly the realization comes oh, where did I park today? Oh yeah, somewhere else. Let's go there. So you're training your mind to build that.

Speaker 2: 1:00:01

All those are beautiful examples of just basically getting on your comfort zone. You don't have to do something big like change, change everything in your life. You just do small things and every once in a while you do something big Right, you know, but you have to just keep on. Keep on challenging that comfort zone. I love that and doing it all the ways you share Beautiful. Yeah Well, any parting words, anything you want to say, to feel complete today in the conversation that you feel that has been left unsaid in any way.

Speaker 3: 1:00:30

Yeah, uh, it has been a great conversation. I think we we talked a lot about the things which which were all over the place, but both those great conversations. I really appreciate the time.

Speaker 3: 1:00:40

Uh, one of the things is change your thoughts and change your reality yes, right and we and I'm a big believer on that whatever those thoughts which you're having, you need to start, don't stop them. That's the one thing which I usually tell people. Don't stop them, because we're trying to stop them and from mind, from inside our mind is thinking if you're trying to stop it, it must be real. You go into that anxiety cycle all the time. All I'm saying is reframe those thoughts and that journey of a thousand miles starts with that one step. Take that one step today and start taking that single step.

Speaker 3: 1:01:19

Whether you want to exercise, right, just do it for one minute today. Just do it that minute today, just do it. That's where it happens. You don't have to, as you said before, you don't have to go to the gym to exercise for one hour. No, start with just one minute today and that will help you to take on that journey. Whatever that journey, whether a journey to become a CIO, whether a journey to become a leader, whatever that journey, you are on path to start with that single step and take that single step today.

Speaker 2: 1:01:52

Well said Well. I want to thank you so much for your insights to this day about how to maximize the CIO role, but mostly around leadership and the things you just talked about around resilience. I so appreciate what you brought to the table and I know our listeners are going to get a lot from this story and this show. So thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 1:02:11

Thank you so much, david, I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 1:02:14

Yeah, and to everyone listening and for joining us today on this journey. Your time and attention is truly appreciated. If it wasn't for you, we wouldn't have this. So I appreciate it and I'm grateful that you, and I would really be grateful that you share this with people that you know, your colleagues, friends or anyone seeking to have more impact, especially those in the tech sector, because I think this will be a resonant conversation for them especially, but any leader really that's trying to have more impact. Sabi said a lot of important things today that they would benefit from. Sabi said a lot of important things today that they would benefit from.

Speaker 2: 1:02:44

You can catch this episode and others on video via YouTube, on Apple Podcasts, spotify, apple Music and 15 other podcasting platforms. The link to the full list of those platforms can be found in the podcast description between the audio and video version that you're enjoying today. Now, as we close, I want you to remind you of what we talked about today the incredible value you can bring when you invest in the growth and development of others around you. As an executive, you will touch hundreds of lives over the course of your career, and when you do so as a leader, it truly changes the world Until we meet again. Keep leading purposefully and creating value for your organizations. I'm wishing you a fantastic rest of your day. This is David Craig-Otz, the Leadership Alchemist, signing off for now. Until next time.