Speaker 1: 0:11

Welcome to Unfazed Under Fire, a podcast designed to elevate your leadership and amplify your impact. Each episode offers valuable insights to help you transform your vision into reality, cultivate high-performing cultures that attract top talents, and navigate the complexities of today's uncertain, chaotic world with confidence and clarity. Now tuning into your needs, here's your host and moderator, seasoned executive coach and leadership alchemist, david Craig Utz.

Speaker 2: 0:46

Welcome back to Unphased Under Fire. I'm David Craig Utz, the leadership alchemist, your host and moderator for the show. Now, this show is dedicated to helping executives amplify their leadership impact, gain fresh insights and build the resilience needed to thrive in today's unpredictable world. We feature two types of guests on the show thought leaders, leadership development, organizational culture, team dynamics. We share strategies tailored to executive challenges and, like today, we're joined by seasoned executives who have embraced leadership development, recognize that people and culture are keys to unlocking their true potential and that of their organizations. Now, at its core, this show is about pioneering breakthroughs in leadership and culture, creating environments that bring out the best in others and inspiring of their organizations. Now at its core, this show is about pioneering breakthroughs in leadership and culture, creating environments that bring out the best in others and inspiring excellence and service to the greater good and one's vision.

Speaker 2: 1:33

Authentic leadership is the driving force behind all of this. When leaders connect deeply to their purpose and authentically engage the human spirit, what once seemed impossible becomes just not achievable but inevitable. We believe that effective leadership starts from within. True impact flows from self-mastery, which is what gives leaders the clarity and confidence to guide others In these disruptive times. Self-mastery isn't just a benefit, it's a bedrock of success. When executives harness their inner resources and lead from the inside out, they unlock the full potential of collaboration, the most powerful unifying force that any organization can wield. Okay Now, today, as I mentioned, we're bringing onto the show a highly seasoned executive technology leader, neil Morris. Welcome, neil, thanks for taking the time to join us in the show today.

Speaker 3: 2:34

Thank you for having me. David, Happy to be here.

Speaker 2: 2:36

Great. Now, before we jump into our conversation, I want to share a little bit of your background, because it's pretty spectacular background. Because it's pretty spectacular Neil is the head of technology for Redaptive and Energy as a service provider that funds and installs energy saving and energy generating equipment. He's a highly experienced executive with strong background in enterprise architecture and leadership. He's led transformations in organizations like Maxar Technologies, ball Aerospace and ADT, overseeing the modernization of IT infrastructure and driving business alignment through strategic architecture initiatives. Summing all that up, neil is an innovative leader and change agent, focusing on driving large-scale digital transformation, cloud migrations and the adoption of agile technologies. And he has an impact because he is highly respected for building and motivating high-performing teams known for their ability to deliver optimal results, innovative answers and cost-effective solutions. Now, when not leading technology advancements, he and his wife, carissa, share a highly fulfilling life with their four daughters in Firestone, colorado, and own Ohana Martial Arts Academy there, which we're going to talk a little bit about.

Speaker 2: 3:48

But it's great to have you again, neil, appreciate you being on the show, and I just like to start off by, as I do with all my guests, because we're human beings first and we've come into this world, this living this sphere that we live on. We were dropped in in and we have this life experience that leads us through all these experiences, and we're going to get into some of the nitty gritty of those experiences. But I'd like you to just, you know, talk about your life journey a little bit. You know, maybe some a couple of the twists and turns you made that maybe have led you kind of bring us up to speed. You can start anywhere you'd like, but we want you to bring us kind of bring us up to speed. You can start anywhere you'd like. We want you to bring us up to current day so we can go from there.

Speaker 3: 4:29

Yeah, no, thanks again for having me on. You're welcome. I've shared my story with a handful of people and they seem to think it's a lot more interesting than I do. But born and raised in Fresno, california, nothing overly spectacular about that but one of the things that really set my trajectory fairly early on was I became a father at a very young age. My wife and I have been together for a little over 30 years, married for 26. A little over 30 years married for 26. And we met our freshman year in high school and ended up pregnant and having my oldest when I was 16. So that really set my trajectory right off of an early age.

Speaker 3: 5:15

I had to grow up quick, had to get a job, had to learn how to get things done and a very supportive family that kind of helped out through that process but was very much a life-changing kind of circumstance. That not a lot of people you had to end up going through and it really set kind of my drive and my desire and really some of the course Fast forward through the number of years. Some job changes, course Fast forward through the number of years. Some job changes, learning how to be a technologist and you had a father and you had a martial artist and all these kinds of experiences.

Speaker 3: 5:54

My wife and I ended up with four daughters, and our youngest ended up severely autistic and nonverbal, something that we figured out when she was about three. She is now 19, right, and things are going very well for her. But learning how to manage and interact with people because, especially with an autistic daughter, right, you learn that it does take a village, right, and it takes support, and how do you get the right people around you and how do you take the situations that are put in front of you and really find the good in them, what you can learn from them, how you drive and how you can support yourself but also everyone around you to achieve those goals. So really ended up providing a mindset. Just from being an early father special needs daughter, martial arts, moving from California to Colorado when we were pregnant with our fourth you really learn how to adapt to situations that are put in front of you and kind of accept everything as a learning opportunity, and that's really kind of what's led me to where I am today.

Speaker 2: 7:10

Yeah, and it's a really beautiful sharing. Yeah, it is interesting. A lot of times our story is more interesting to others than ourselves. I would feel the same way sometimes, so I can appreciate that. But it's like these. The one thing, a couple of things you just said is you know, but it's like these. The one thing, a couple of things you just said, is you know, today more than any other time, and it seems to be increasingly so resilience and take it at one moment at a time is becoming more the mode of living. But when you have kind of those challenges of early fatherhood and then a special needs daughter and all the things that came in between with the other two that you had right, and then you know martial arts, throw that in there it's really that general adaption and flexibility and resilience that you gain from all. That certainly applies to the business landscape, doesn't it?

Speaker 3: 7:59

Oh, absolutely right. I mean, you know life is nothing but a series of situations that you find yourself in, right, and you have to take kind of those, those core foundational principles. Right, of just being resilient. Right, my granddaughter, her name's Serenity and I think of like that Serenity prayer, right, you know, they give me the ability to change those things.

Speaker 3: 8:24

I can't to accept the things that I can't. And that's really a very strong life mantra, core principle, because you can learn something through any circumstance, right. And how do you apply those? Whether you're in the middle of kind of martial arts business life right, you're yet in the middle of kind of martial arts business life, right. Yet be grateful for everything that is put in front of you, because everything has a lesson. Some of those are good, difficult, challenging, yeah, difficult and less fun to learn than others. But people are the totality of their life experiences and that's what they bring to the table. And if you're willing to be authentic in yourself and accept those as learning opportunities and see how you interact with other people and how you can get things done, you can really kind of progress and move that needle across all aspects of life and business.

Speaker 2: 9:23

Yeah, I have a friend who's a songwriter, bob Sime. He has a song Life Isn't Happening to you, it's Happening for you. And it's kind of like what you're saying is inherent in what you're saying is that you know, and I think that we have a world where you know I'm not saying that people don't have challenging circumstances. They have to overcome much bigger than I do. I'm going to be having a guest on the show, jessica Vox, who was born without arms and now she's a pilot. So I mean, it's phenomenal things that we can do because what I call the human spirit. And this points to something you've done, which is you own Ohana Martial Arts Academy You've talked about. Obviously, martial arts has been part of your life for a long period of time. What led you to go into martial arts and to start could be so fervent and a believer in it that you started your own academy.

Speaker 3: 10:21

Yeah, so the starting story is probably less interesting than the ending. I was a young boy and my parents put me in martial arts. Whether you talk to them, whether it's getting me out of the house or giving me something to do with my energy.

Speaker 2: 10:41

This will be good for him.

Speaker 3: 10:42

Yeah, it will be good for him. That was kind of how it started, and once you get in there you learn that it's just about that stick-to-itiveness, right? Some of the best martial artists I know didn't start and aren't the best athletes they're not the star there right, there's certainly those martial athletes that we've referred to them as that have those phenomenal like martial skill, uh, but it's the difference between fighting and martial arts.

Speaker 3: 11:18

Right, there's a lot of really good fighters, but to be a martial artist is a level of discipline and practice and continuous improvement and self-betterment, right and just you know, there's a whole lifestyle and mindset to it. That just is like things are going to be hard, right, not everything's going to come easy, but yet if you stick to it, if you practice, practice, if you learn, if you continuously improve, you can become more proficient. And that was a very profound kind of thing that I learned early kind of in my martial arts journey. That then applied to business and all sorts of different aspects of my life, and one of those that I want to do in part to my children.

Speaker 3: 12:02

And my wife got into martial arts and my children all got into martial arts and we just really kind of gravitated to it as a lifestyle, so much so that we opened up the Martial Arts Academy. My wife is now the primary instructor, right, and we get great satisfaction out of seeing all of our students come in. Some are great athletes, some are not, some are uncoordinated, but just watching everyone improve, just that kind of 1% a day, 1% a week, just gradual over time, and we have students that have been with us for three, four, five years, since we opened the school in 2018. And seeing them come from children to adults or adults looking at situations differently and just being more flexible gives me great satisfaction.

Speaker 2: 13:01

And there's so much you said there, like the idea of why do you show up at the dojo every day or the academy to do your work? You know what's your focus. Why show up? So there has to be a reason for it. Well, in your case, it was your parents initially, but over time maybe you gravitated to something more important to that, and the continued development of mastery might have been one of those things right, absolutely, and the continued development of mastery might have been one of those things Right. And then the idea Right. And then the idea that you know, I have an athlete on the show that's going to be on soon, greg Baldwin, who's a professional, a professional basketball player, and he said that confidence doesn't come from motivation.

Speaker 2: 13:40

I mean, that's, that's an aspect of confidence, he said. But but what? What happens is if you do something in a disciplined way, over time you just naturally become more confident. I'm wondering, you probably see that in your students at the academy, or in direct reports, or in yourself as you do something for a while. It's not like an arrogance, it's like something settles in. Is that fair?

Speaker 3: 14:02

I think it is right. And yet I think of you know, I think everyone kind of experiences that, maybe at a micro level. Right, I think you know it's a very common experience for people to learn how to drive right and the 16-year-old behind the wheel or 18, depending on your state right. It's a very conscious thing as adults that have been doing it for 20, 30 years. Sometimes we're not even as conscious doing it as maybe we should be. How did I get?

Speaker 3: 14:30

home Right. Yeah, how did I get home? I just put the car on autopilot. Right, because it becomes natural. Right, just because it gets practiced so often, which is the wonderful thing about martial arts, because it's it's not about fighting right, it's about you know improvement, lifestyle, you know fitness and just by going through kind of that process you can show up more confidently just as a person. Right in a lot of different situations. And that confidence just comes with practicing. Right. We teach children how to introduce themselves to adults and how to shake hands right. And when you see one of your students walk up to an adult outside of the dojo and say, david, nice to meet you, my name is little Johnny. Right and confidence coming from an eight-year-old. It's uncommon today and it's just one of those things that people get better as they practice and we give people the opportunity to practice those things.

Speaker 2: 15:41

Well, thank you for doing that. I think that's the kind of thing we should be teaching in schools, right, those things. Well, thank you for doing that. I think that's the kind of thing we should be teaching in schools, right, we've lost touch of some basic educational things we could be doing, but that's another story for another day. Now, throughout your career, obviously, martial arts was an influence on you and influenced and colored your leadership, and we'll probably touch on that more as we go forward. But what have there been some other influences on shaping your approach to leading and building teams? If you would share that, if you have kind of where other things might have come into play.

Speaker 3: 16:16

Yeah. So I think of kind of leading teams right, and I've been fortunate to lead teams for a very long time. When I started as a technologist right and started the kind of help desk and you had systems administration right in the latest kind of dot-com areas, I realized I'm not that good of a technologist right. There's a lot of people that have a lot more skill in the execution of deploying technology than I did, but I have an ability to understand what the business is trying to achieve through technology. So that really led me into architecture and finding those crossroads and giving purpose to technology right, because a lot of technologists and some of the people that I know are just best in the world at doing technology whether that's been networking, cloud services right. Giving them the ability to understand what the business is trying to do and how to achieve those outcomes was really where I found my passion from a technology perspective.

Speaker 3: 17:30

So I became a leader very early on right and helping technology organizations through architecture, even before I knew that was the terminology for it. You know, marry that technology to business outcomes. And I've spent a number of years you know two decades plus at this point kind of refining. You know how do we think about business? How do we talk about business and how do we bring technology to those problems to help them accelerate their organizations? Right? And it's not necessarily about ROI. I actually hate efficiencies right as a metric of success. But how do you improve revenue per employee right? How do we get everyone to be more efficient at helping the business sell, deliver right and show value?

Speaker 2: 18:24

Yeah, well, and this is kind of where we need to go to the next level again in enterprise architecture. And as I see it, I mean I talk to other people involved in this area and it's still fairly, even in some big organizations, fairly misunderstood, not fully understood or appreciated. I think I don't know if that's fair or if I have a limited slice that I've seen, and maybe it's much bigger. It is a bigger thing. It's named enterprise architecture, now at least, but if you could talk a little bit about you described it as being a master blueprint for aligning organization and business goals. Could you explain a little bit more the role and you started already doing that but expand that a little bit how it reduces complexity and fosters better decision-making across the organization and helps organize the actual IT that you already have, or technology that you're selling, more effectively?

Speaker 3: 19:21

Yeah, I think from an enterprise architecture, like from the practice of enterprise architecture, you hear DODF and you hear TOGAF and you hear ZACMED and you hear all these different frameworks and everything. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with those, right, but they do kind of make it difficult for the individual kind of business executive to understand, because they're trying to run the business right, they're not architects. And the technologist, they just want to deploy technology, they're not architects. So that architecture really fits in the middle, right, and I think as a practice of enterprise architecture, we can get spun around the axle on these frameworks, right, enterprise architecture is really about listening to the business, understanding their vision of where they want the business to go and then providing a GPS right Of how do we get there?

Speaker 3: 20:16

Right, it doesn't have to be exact.

Speaker 3: 20:18

Right, it doesn't have to be completely documented ahead of time.

Speaker 3: 20:22

Right, you can do this in a very agile kind of way, not trying to cross the streams with, you know, agile software development or anything. But we can be flexible, right, and adapt to changing business climates and really looking at things in a simplistic way to say you know, everybody sells, right, how do we enable those sellers? Right, we got to run a good operation. We got to deliver right, we got to continuously develop our people because technology is changing and we got to keep in line with that strategy. And just how do you do those really basic things really well, with high quality in terms that the business understands, but then turn around and also put it in terms that the technologist understand, so we can really meet those two organizations in the middle and get them all rowing in the same direction, pulling the same rope at the same time, which is really where enterprise architecture, I think, often misses the mark, because we get overly complex in our frameworks and how we do the process and not focus on the results.

Speaker 2: 21:38

Again, I might be messing this up, but it feels like you're bringing a leadership mindset to the connection between the business and technology that you know, leaders kind of created, kind of are creators. They have vision. That vision is their primary creative modality. So, whether it's, how are we going to leverage talent, how are we going to improve sales, how are we going to, you know, be more efficient in our processes, whatever it is, there's an end game that you have to get from the business executive. Then you have to somehow translate that to the technologist to do that, and the architecture is the thing that holds it all together. Is that fair? Is that a fair description?

Speaker 3: 22:17

would you say. I think that is a fair description of it, right, it's listening to the business, listening to the story they're trying to tell, right, and then reframe that story in a way that technologists understand how they can support, right the organization delivering on that mission, right? So I absolutely think that's fair.

Speaker 2: 22:40

Yeah, now you have a kind of way that you hold this together in a five-pillar model. Is that right? If that's something that you could describe to us like if you're going to do enterprise architecture this is the way I do it and maybe that's the wrong model but how do you hold it all together? So, when you're looking through that lens, probably automatically, but you're also helping other people look through that lens so they can make sense of it automatically, but you're also helping other people look through that lens so they can make sense of it.

Speaker 3: 23:06

Yeah, so yeah, I said, over the last couple of decades I've kind of looked at enterprise architecture, a number of different ways and how to manage those things, and I ended up calling it God's G-O-D-D-S right, because it's easy for me to remember right, and I think of that as growth, operations, delivery, development and strategy, and it's pretty simplistic. When I think growth, I think everyone sells. You have salespeople. That's an easy concept to understand From a technologist perspective in a business, you identify who your internal customers are, right and to sell whether you're selling to an external person or an internal customer, right. That's about relationship, understanding their needs right, understanding where they're going to get value and then aligning what you're selling right, your technology solutions to what they need and how you're going to produce value right. So that's that's what I call growth right.

Speaker 3: 24:06

Operations is every IT organization and any organization of any size has a budget right. We have things we have to do and we have to manage our IT organization like a business right, or else you're not going to be permitted to kind of continue to do those things right. So we got to make sure that we're taking care of the T's and C's and running a good business. Right. Delivery right. Once you've identified the business needs right. And you go buy something from an external party right. You expect to get value from it. You got to deliver. You got to track it right. The same holds true if it's an internal organization right. We understand where the business is going. We're aligned with the value. We got to deliver on our promises.

Speaker 3: 24:52

From a development perspective, technology changes incredibly quick, especially over the last couple of years, when you see AI and LLMs and machine learning, right, we can talk about the academics and the roots of artificial intelligence going back to the 50s, but it's really been the last couple of years where the computing powers really got into a point where you see it really take off.

Speaker 3: 25:17

So the pace of change is quick and you've got to stay on top of those. So you've got to continuously work on developing your people, developing yourself, and then all of it has to be aligned with some strategy, right? Strategy is kind of that marriage of where we need to go and how we need to get there, right? You hear the business, but you can't be everything to everybody, right? So in strategy, a lot of times it's how do we focus down on what's the most important? How do we say this is where we want to be in five years and start making progress that way, why still giving yourself the ability to be flexible? And when I kind of break it down for myself, which is kind of where it started just in that five kind of pillar model of growth, operations, delivery, development and strategy delivery, development and strategy it provides a nice easy framework without getting overly complicated and pulling out the TOGAF certification, which becomes overly complex for a lot of organizations unless they're at a critical scale where it makes sense.

Speaker 2: 26:23

It's kind of like walking into the dojo as a first timer, watching a six degree black belt working on the mat and completely being wow, how do they do that right? You gotta break. You gotta break that down to simpler steps, right yeah, breaking down to simpler steps and realize, yeah they've been doing it for 30 years.

Speaker 3: 26:44

Yeah, so it's like you had thousands of hours on the mat.

Speaker 2: 26:47

So how do you just start?

Speaker 3: 26:49

that journey. Yeah, repetitions.

Speaker 2: 26:53

And what do you see as some of the common mistakes or challenges organizations run into when they may become frustrated about enterprise architecture or feel like it's not working for them, or they go down some alleys they should go? What are some of the bigger challenges you see organizations facing in applying this that might dissuade them or slow them down?

Speaker 3: 27:14

I mean, it's not finding that balance and building that bridge right? So, at the end of the day, business and technology is about people. Right, we do what we do, whether it's building cars, working on, you know, building satellites. Right, you know, working at ADT security and protecting people's homes right by itself, there's not an intrinsic value in a piece of technology, right, it's what it enables your customers to do. Right, it's what it enables your employees to do. So, keeping very human-centric and human first right is key. Right.

Speaker 3: 28:00

And what you see a lot of times is you start talking to the business what do you need? Where are you going? What's the strategy? Okay, how do we make this technology work?

Speaker 3: 28:08

And everyone gets really heads down and they start to put together this architecture, right, that gets further and further and further away from the business because it gets pulled more towards the technology. And then you start hearing architecture being talked about. You know the ivory tower, right, they're going and building these. You know fanciful designs of how systems should be together and building these elegant mousetraps, right, that never seem to work at the end of the day, and you know it's, it's so. It's that ivory tower syndrome which really comes from not putting the humans and who you're working with, who those customers are, internal or external right in the middle of every decision and, really, you know, partnering with the business to make sure you keep going back to those customers and making sure that their yeah, their needs are being met, first and foremost, because, if not, then architecture is a bunch of pretty pictures, maybe some fun technology right, but it's not actually advancing the business or advancing you know, mankind. Potentially, um, depending on the technology spheres that you're working in.

Speaker 2: 29:22

Yeah Well, I mean, inherent in that is how are we developing a relationship with each other, building trust, building mutual understanding, not going off the reservation and getting totally enamored? And that happens with technology. I work with a lot of technology executives and that happens with tech. I mean, I work with a lot of technology executives. You know that just fall in love with whatever and that's very easy to do because it's exciting. But then you lose touch when you try to go back and explain why you're so excited to the head of sales or the head of finance.

Speaker 3: 29:53

And you know they're going what you know because of that, but it really, if you understand and you're intimately connected to the business and understand their concerns as a driving force for what you're doing, that fusion, that break, doesn't happen. I agree Because there's a lot of people out there that tell a very compelling story, right. People out there that tell a very compelling story, right, and I enjoy the recent publications and articles and everything I've read about the power of storytelling right, and how to tell a story as a technologist to the business right, but understanding the business. But a lot of executives technologists go to a conference, hear a very compelling story on how Kubernetes or AI or this shiny object is going to solve all of their problems Right, and I think the part that gets missed is that's their story, right, and it's a compelling story, but it's not necessarily our story as a business.

Speaker 3: 30:58

It's a compelling story, but it's not necessarily our story as a business, right. So understanding can that or should that be a part of our story? And how we deliver value to our customers and continuously going back to those relationships, right, is critically important, but it starts with being close to the business, building those relationships, building those bridges and understanding what your story is as an organization and how you deliver value for your internal customers and then, through that, the external customers of the business.

Speaker 2: 31:29

Well, what you're basically saying is technologists have to be better at critically thinking. Because they're going into these conferences. Those stories have been crafted to tap into your psychology and get you excited. They know exactly what they're doing when they're crafting those stories, as we all know, the narrative can be king, but if you don't ground that in, how is this helping my business? Okay, let me ask some questions around that. That sounds awfully good, and so you have to become a critical thinker and also remember who you're working for and who you're trying to support in the end, right?

Speaker 3: 32:01

Absolutely, absolutely. I'm amazed and I find myself caught up with the excitement of a good story. Of course, me too.

Speaker 2: 32:12

I've gotten sucked in many times. It's just being human, because we get moved. We get moved by something and when we're emotionally moved and then we form a belief without checking out what we believe, that happens all the time. We can see that happen in the political spectrum. Right, it's like it happens all the time, like, okay, what's really happening? Let me look with my eyes at what's happening and relate to that. So, anyway, that's very funny. So you know and and I don't know if you're, this is what you're touching on but you're a real advocate for leveraging EA with digital transformation or enterprise architecture, digital information. What's the role of the modern enterprise architecture frameworks play in enabling organizations to stay agile and competitive in a rapidly evolving environment? You might have touched on that a little bit, but if you could extrapolate on that a little bit, how does it help with those things?

Speaker 3: 33:05

Yeah, I think of enterprise architecture as kind of like organizational GPS how do you get from where you are to where you want to go? Right? Understanding that story right, and I kind of touched on a lot of the larger frameworks, the trap that we can get on is we draw out that path and we start down that road but we realize there's a detour. Some new technology comes in, some new disruptor comes in, something that comes at us that maybe we were or we're not expecting, that radically changes the path we need to take. Right. And enterprise architecture, if we're engaged with the business, flexible, understand the enterprise frameworks and those reference architectures and we abstract where we're going from the tools that we're using, if we need to get from here to there, maybe we take I'm in Denver I-25 straight north right, but maybe I need to hop over to 85, right and allowing those frameworks to allow you to be flexible and nimble, to adjust to those changing realities of the business landscape, of the technical landscape, of the disruptors, to take advantage of those opportunities to find a faster route or work around some of those detours, is a critical piece to that enterprise architecture is a critical piece to that enterprise architecture.

Speaker 3: 34:37

And having those really strong reference architectures that say there's some fundamental stuff that we just need to make sure we get right. We can't bring in a piece of technology that doesn't fit with our cybersecurity requirements and posture, because that would put the business at risk. We can't do these kinds of things or these are the things that we should bias towards heavily because they're right for our business right and putting those things in that context. But it gives you a framework of getting where you're going without being so rigid that you have to drive around all the obstacles and through all the potholes right, and being able to adapt to the changing reality of the business climate, which is also one of the areas I think enterprise architecture falls short, because no one really likes change, including architects. That's jobs is to drive change right, but being able to be flexible is key to that, and making sure you build those bridges and understand the business right and, yeah, allow for those deviations to happen when, when the reality changes, which seems to be a daily challenge.

Speaker 2: 35:50

Well, and I look, modern world yeah, and I'm looking at ai as an example. I mean, uh, I mean just an example, and I may be oversimplifying this, but if I process something through AI, which saves me a lot of time, how can I trust what I've done, you know, or what the output is, Because it's smarter than I am in some degree, but it also may have a bias built into it. Right, I mean, that's an example. I mean that's at a simple level, but where? How do I mean? How would you answer that question? How do we make sure that this is like? Is it possible we could be taken down the wrong path by deploying it, or how do we avoid that?

Speaker 3: 36:32

as you know, I think it could absolutely be taken down the wrong path. And when I think AI one of the recent talk tracks that I've been sharing with a lot of people is we refer to it as artificial intelligence. In today's world that gets caught up with large language models and generative AI in a lot of different contexts and talking about, like hey, can it lead me down the wrong path? Right, how do I validate hallucinations, bias, all these kind of things? And it really. It makes people's jobs in a lot of ways harder. Right, it makes them faster right, but we have to train people how to work with these tools, which I tend to refer to as augmented intelligence instead of artificial intelligence, because I think they they can really augment my capability to deliver value faster.

Speaker 2: 37:31

Grow my IQ, for sure. Right.

Speaker 3: 37:33

Yeah, but you have to put the human reasoning behind it, yes, and people really have to get good at that critical thinking right. I can't just put in a question right and accept the answer. I have to question the data set. I got to question the validity. I got to test it right so it can accelerate in a lot of ways our ability to get value. Think about things in different ways. You got to get really good at building those models, building those prompts right. Anyone that's just using AI and asking a basic question what is the answer to life? Right and taking what the AI provides right without really interrogating it and understanding that, and looking against different data sources and putting their human reasoning and their expertise on top of it is missing where the real value is, in my opinion.

Speaker 2: 38:34

That's what I feel like. You know it's, it's and again, I'm like, I'm like baby steps from where you're at with understanding all this. But if I understand the vision for why I'm using it, it goes back to where am I trying to take myself through and engage aging AI and what instructions do I need to give it? That are my assumptions that it needs to know, so it takes me closer to what I'm trying to create. If I don't do that, you're right, it can go. It goes in a million different places and that's a simplistic way of looking at it, maybe, but you know, that's kind of what I've discovered. You have to, you do have to. You have to, just like any, any relationship, you have to ask questions and you got to set context and you got to set the direction.

Speaker 2: 39:17

You know.

Speaker 3: 39:18

So I mean, it's it. It's amazing how much intelligence it can provide, right, but in a lot of ways it's it's a very unintelligent interface. Right, you have to get very specific on those personas tone style, information, validation, right. So even people that I've found to be very good at soliciting good responses out of different large language models, it takes a lot of time, right, to think about how I'm going to interact with this intelligent co-worker, co-pilot. There's a lot of different terms for it to make sure I get the best answers, and even then I got to interrogate those responses a few different ways to really maximize the value. But if you go through that exercise, the value you can get out of it is tremendous.

Speaker 2: 40:23

Well, I look at it. As you know, I have worked with some very highly intelligent individuals that had no capacity for leadership or even consciousness or awareness around relationship and needs of other people. We have, like they say, we have three brains that one between our ears, the heart and the gut and you might relate to that in martial arts as well and I don't think AI is processing the wisdom of the heart or the wisdom of the gut a lot of times. So we've got to take that into effect and understand that. You know, intelligence cut off from those other two things can be dangerous, right?

Speaker 3: 40:58

We all know that it absolutely can be, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:05

Well, let's step into kind of your leadership philosophy and your team-building philosophy a little bit, because I think one of the reasons why I have guests like you on the show is because you've gotten at what the importance of developing your own leadership and certainly that came from developing mastery in martial arts and other. In your experience as an executive you found that invaluable but also in the building of teams. So what is your philosophy of building and nurturing high-performing teams that can navigate all these challenges we're facing and embrace change and really produce value?

Speaker 3: 41:38

Yeah, so it kind of goes back to putting the human in the center, right. You know, early on in my technical career I made some, you know, looking back at it, you know pretty fundamental mistakes, right, and mistakes teach you just as much as successes probably 10 times, right, um, and with experience comes, you know, a lot of failure.

Speaker 3: 42:04

with a lot of failure comes experience and learning. Uh, and when I started I was very much that technologist, deploying technology for technology right, and had some very you know I'll call them I don't think they were necessarily all that spectacular failures, but programs that failed to produce the results that were anticipated. And as I sat back and we went through and we were talking through these and I've been fortunate to have a number of great mentors and leaders, also some not so great ones in my past- we're also going to teach you a lot about leadership too,

Speaker 3: 42:41

right, which also teach you a lot about leadership. Getting back to that technology does not have any intrinsic value. I'm sitting in front of my laptop here and it's a very sophisticated piece of electronics that, without a human using it or soliciting the value out of it right, it has no intrinsic value in and of itself. So kind of going back and saying, okay, what is the end result? What am I trying to do with this technology? And then really working with teams, then getting into kind of leadership. How do you impart, coach, mentor, right, understand your team where they are right In their journey, right as individuals, what inspires them? What gets them moving? How can I put them in a place where they can be most successful to deliver technology and solutions for customers?

Speaker 3: 43:41

Right, and saying that there's two sides, three sides, 10 sides to this human equation, right, and technology is just, you know, just a part of it. Right and probably the least important part of it, versus understanding your people, their strengths, their weaknesses, their opportunities, where they want to go in their career. How can you give them those opportunities to succeed and fail in safe places, in safe methods that allow us to rapidly advance where they are and they're getting fulfillment and we're delivering real value for the business and helping the business tell its story to the street, to their end customers, which are also humans on the other end of that continuum. So it's very much, you know, leading from the heart, right as much as leading from the head, and understanding and valuing people for where they are, what they bring to the table, and realizing not everyone's in the same place.

Speaker 3: 44:47

Right, and I can't treat employees like equipment. I've made that mistake in the past. Everyone needs to get on this train. There's certain people that don't want to get on that train and we need people that are in other parts of their journey to fill up the roster. So human-centric leadership is definitely key to where I am and where I bring my value Because, like I said, I'm not necessarily the best technologist, and less so the more I spend time in leadership.

Speaker 2: 45:23

Well, again, the higher you go in an organization, the less you do of what you were an expert in, right, that, what you really and I say this all the time and I say this on the podcast a number of times you're basically paid to facilitate conversations and facilitate teams to be operating at the highest functioning level they can to produce transformational outcomes that matter Right, and you're getting a new project. It's a digital transformation process or whatever it is. It's related to, you know, building out the architecture more, whatever it is. Now you've got these six to eight people on the team. Walk me through how you approach a project like that to make sure it gets the result as you and then it applies as human-centric principles, like step-by-step. If you could, you know, obviously don't drill down to a whole lot of detail, but if you would say here's the steps to do it, if I'm dealing with that situation, this is what I would do first, second, third kind of thing.

Speaker 3: 46:28

Yeah. So first thing that I think of is the project is created right, for a reason. So my first step is to work with those sponsors, understand what they're driving to. If this project is as successful as it can be, what does that look like at the end? How does your day change? How does our sales change? How does the value we deliver to our customers change?

Speaker 3: 47:01

What is that story, right, that they would like to hear or be able to share when it's done? Right, because that provides an incredibly powerful context to the why right. You can then take that to the team right. And if you go to the team and say we're going to go build widget X, y, z right, it's completely uninspiring. Right. It's like, okay, I'm going to go build ABC right, but in a knowledge economy with technical people that are creative, right, and looking to solve problems, it's not all that inspiring. But if you can take that story and say we are going to unlock this value to the business right, we are going to help the business grow 10x by delivering these capabilities, right, what do you think? Right.

Speaker 3: 47:58

And getting everyone on board right behind the project, understanding the why, understanding the value, it really builds a core for success because everyone's bought into the mission of that individual project, right. It builds the sense of urgency, like, oh yes, if we could unlock that value, we can 10X our business. That's exciting, right. And once the people are there, then it's okay. What are we missing? Right, to get this done? Right, do we have the skills, do we have the capabilities, do we have the budget? Where are those obstacles? And how do we line those up and really prioritize that work to get everyone catalyst around delivering the value and then getting them in front of those customers and that back and forth dialogue. And then they always come up with better technology solutions than I would ever come up with, right, and come up with very creative ideas. But it's really about getting the buy-in, getting that story right, getting people excited to be part of something that allows them to do something that's larger than themselves right, and that team dynamic is really, really key to success in my opinion.

Speaker 2: 49:21

Right, yeah. So I mean, it's what I hear you saying and it's pretty much what you said is first of all, you have to understand what you are rolling the team in by going out to the stakeholders, the sponsors, and understanding what their vision, what measurable impact, what has to happen for that vision to be unfolded in a way that would measurably impact the business the way they want it.

Speaker 2: 49:43

Get really clear on that. Then you go back and you're kind of then enrolling the team in that vision and saying here's what the opportunity here is for everybody on this team and everybody oh, you have a part to play in this. That's why I've put you on this team, because you're the right people for the job. And it's kind of like getting them in the same boat together, fundamentally as a metaphor. And then you start working on how do we keep rowing like a crew team? How do we keep rowing the same direction, the same right, picking up the oars at the right time and putting them in the water? And along the way, we'll probably have some challenges with bumping heads and conflict. That's part of the deal. How are we going to deal with that when that happens? Do you think about those things ahead of time, like, if we start having challenges on this team, this is how we're going to resolve the issues amongst us. Is that something you talk about? And, if so, how do you deal with that one?

Speaker 3: 50:40

Yeah, so it's. It's an area where I don't probably spend as much time as I as I should, at least initially. You know, my initial thought is always good. How do I build excitement, understand where we're going get?

Speaker 2: 50:53

everyone in the boat. Absolutely Right're going get everyone in the boat absolutely right once you have everyone in the boat that solves a lot of problems right there no doubt it's.

Speaker 3: 51:00

Yeah. Once everyone's in the boat right, and you start to see those disruptions, uh, you know, you know, I, I get the team together right and really like, hey, you know, let's have those open, honest, transparent conversations, right, we're never going to get there right. And if you look at the oar behind you and say your side of the boat is sinking right, that's never a good situation, right, it's, the boat is sinking right. So it's, how do we do this together right? And part of that and I think this is something that I spent some time doing ahead of time is for people to get bought on, for people to be part of a team, for people to have those honest dialogues.

Speaker 3: 51:47

David, this is not working for us. We need to work through this. That requires a safe place to operate, right. You know, if you have a lot of politics and backstabbing and, like you know, those kind of challenges where people don't feel safe to be creative, share ideas and challenge each other, that's really where those problems become problematic. So I do spend some time making sure that we're developing cultures right, even before we get programs and projects brought in where people can say I don't think that's the right answer. Right and here is why right and have a very open and transparent dialogue where those challenges could be and where those options are. But the flip side of that is also understanding at some point we have to make a decision. So let's all share our ideas, let's challenge those, let's agree with whose decision it is to make Once those decisions are made, okay let's all row and get behind the plan.

Speaker 2: 52:51

Well, you just actually did answer it because, before you're putting these teams together for particular projects, you've built an organization that has a culture and that culture has a certain way. Here's how we do things around here. Here's what behaviors that are acceptable or that actually add value to moving things forward, and these are unacceptable behaviors that we don't put up with. You know we create an environment that promotes high performing and the best, bringing our best selves to work every day. We have certain ways of operating with each other through respect, and you know how we build trust. That's built in a certain way already before you step into a project. That's what I hear you say, Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 53:31

Absolutely so. I don't think of it as part of the project onboarding. It actually comes probably even before that.

Speaker 2: 53:39

All right. So you know, given those out there that are striving to raise you know, rise in their careers maybe they're aspiring to be, maybe they're at director level or they're just approaching VP level. Whatever, what do you offer aspiring executives looking to make a significant impact through technology and leadership, as like your go-to advice? For here's what I would do. I know it's a pretty general question and you probably are looking specifically if I was coaching you as one of those executives, but in general, what do you say? Here's what I would keep an eye on so that you can maybe save some time from what I did or didn't do, or embrace those opportunities that feel challenging, that might feel like a kick in the gut, and take advantage of them.

Speaker 3: 54:27

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 54:28

So yeah, when I'm talking to yeah, I'll say younger leaders, people earlier in their careers uh, I was recently talking to you, had a handful of folks at the young professionals board of the colorado technologies association uh, and, and what I tell them is you know, you really got to decide. You know what, where you are and where your value is right. So, even before I want to be a director, a VP, what energizes you as a person? Where do you want to be? Because I found myself in a handful of roles where it's just like, ah, this isn't the right fit, and some experimentation in that is healthy, some experimentation in that is healthy. If you define what your value is and where you're going to get the most personal satisfaction out of it and that aligns to being a VP, a director, right, a CIO then that's great.

Speaker 3: 55:26

But you really got to start with kind of looking in the mirror and being very conscious about your value and what you want to do, right, because if your values, what you want to do, right, what energizes you, what makes you go home in the evening and you just want to share with your wife, significant other, hey, guess what I did today? This was the most exciting thing that could have happened. Right, that's how people want to go home most days, right. What is that that energizes you? And then how do you find opportunities to go home most days? Right, what is that that energizes you? And then how do you find opportunities to kind of do that? Right, if you're going into leadership? Right, and you get really excited about the latest release of Kubernetes or this tech, right, really questions like, hey, is management where I should be or should I go down a technical leadership route? Right, because if you get that right, your values and your motivations aren't aligned with what energizes you.

Speaker 3: 56:30

You can get into those positions and it's not actually where you want to be right, and that's a hard spot to be. So I kind of even take it back from there. And then if people decide they do want to go into those director VP roles, it's, like you know, really study human behavior, organizational behavior right, because it's a people business. Right, you're stepping out of a technical role into a role where you are delivering value through others. If that energizes you, that's fantastic. You're on a good path. But take time and study people right. What makes them tick? Learn who's working for you, get to know them at a personal level and really figure out how you can be supportive to them. If you can get all of your people lifted up and delivering at a higher value, that's really where success as a leader comes in and builds other opportunities in those organizations to build progressively larger, more complex teams. You know manage things differently, but you got to find out what type of leader you want to be right and really align with your values.

Speaker 2: 57:50

Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's. I find a lot of times when people are so focused on the ladder, they miss a lot of what. When people are so focused on the ladder, they miss a lot of what you said. You know, if they're focusing on taking the next step up, as somehow that's going to make them, you know, and we all know, that most people that take the step up to the next ladder oh, it's not what I thought it was, I don't know. Sure this is not as fulfilling as I thought it was or it's not exactly what I expected do some of the things that you suggested they do.

Speaker 2: 58:13

But if you get connected to what you're passionate about and you follow your nose and you get really more and more masterful at that, your career takes care of itself. If you're doing a good job of connecting to other people, serving other people, et cetera, and the other side of it, I, like you, know it is really understanding human psychology, the way human beings operate. That starts with what you did, which I think is probably more transparent to you than most people because you're a martial artist. But really self-mastery is where it all starts. I understand how people tick first by getting to know how I tick Now. Not everybody's the same as me, but there are certain things that I notice. I get reactive. When I get reactive, I'm not my best self when I'm non-reactive. When I'm in the moment, when I'm attending to listening, I do a better job.

Speaker 3: 59:01

Now, those are general things that you learn from, and then you can help other people find those things as well, right, so yeah, and I think a key to a lot of that is regardless of your position, your title, regardless of your position, your title, where you are in your career. We don't often take enough time right In silence and self-reflection to understand that about ourselves.

Speaker 3: 59:27

Thank you for saying that. So take those few minutes. I know people that journal right, If that works for you. Journal right, Meditation, If that works for you find something that works. Find what works for you and take time every day to just think about how did I show up, how can I show up better? How am I motivated? Where do I find my value in this world? Right, and if you can understand yourself better, you can show up better for others ahead.

Speaker 2: 1:00:19

What emerging trends, technologies issues do you see having the most significant impact on the role of a CIO or enterprise architects that do you think have to be attended to, that you may not have shared today or you want to reemphasize, that are important for your profession and leaders in your profession to be keeping their eye on?

Speaker 3: 1:00:36

your profession and leaders in your profession to be keeping their eye on. Yeah, so when I'm thinking like macro level, like years down the road, at the role of a CIO or a technology leader, right, I think of the evolution of technology going back from the 60s 70s. Right, IT was a very niche skill. Right, it lived under the CFO for a while, Then CIOs really became in their own and then CISOs. Now we're seeing a generation of technologists coming out of high school and college. Right, People are technically literate.

Speaker 3: 1:01:09

Right, and technology can't just be held in the realm of the IT organization.

Speaker 3: 1:01:16

Right, we got to figure out how to leverage tools and allow people to leverage AI and tools that we don't even know are coming in organizations that are outside of the IT organization in a safe, responsible way. So that democratized, distributed IT model like how do you work with your peers to bring their education levels up and understand the risk that they're signing the business up by leveraging technology in their organizations is where I'm spending a lot of time and mind share, because there's a lot of technical talent that don't have IT titles, right, and how do we leverage those as a business to really propel our organizations to new heights and new levels right In a way that's safe and secure, complicated in a lot of ways by AI and the dramatic rapid change right that that's going to have. Right for our businesses, right and, you know, humanity as a whole, right, the potentials are great, but it's how do you unlock that human potential of all that technology and all that technology talent that exists outside of the IT organization?

Speaker 2: 1:02:36

Yeah, Well, this has been a really rich conversation. We covered martial arts, how that integrates with leadership, and how the power of enterprise architecture and how to make sure it's connected to the business and that relationship, and then back into leadership and team building. It's been a really, really great conversation, enlightening conversation. I know there's going to be a lot of value that our listeners have gotten gained from your story and your sharing today. So again, Neil, thank you for joining the show today. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 1:03:08

No, thank you for having me on. It was a great conversation, I enjoyed it and hopefully someone gets a little bit of value out of it.

Speaker 2: 1:03:20

I think there'll be a ton of value for sure. Well, I also want to thank everybody out there for tuning in. Thank you for continuing to be part of this journey with me and us. Your time and attention, again, is everything. If you don't pay any attention to it, this doesn't go anywhere. You're the customer. If you will, if you found today's discussion valuable, please help us by spreading the word, by sharing, letting your colleagues and friends know about the show and know how to find it. And remember, you can catch this and all episodes on YouTube and audio on 15 platforms, including Apple Podcasts, spotify and Amazon Music, and the connection to all those platforms are below the podcast today. So until next time, keep leading on purpose and making an impact. Have a great rest of your day. This is David Craig. I'm the Leadership Alchemist signing off. Thanks again. Have a great day.