Speaker 1: 0:11

Welcome to Unfazed Under Fire, a podcast designed to elevate your leadership and amplify your impact. Each episode offers valuable insights to help you transform your vision into reality, cultivate high-performing cultures that attract top talents, and navigate the complexities of today's uncertain, chaotic world with confidence and clarity. Now tuning into your needs, here's your host and moderator, seasoned executive coach and leadership alchemist, david Craig Utz. Craig Utz.

Speaker 2: 0:47

Welcome back to Unfazed Under Fire. I'm David Craig Utz, leadership alchemist, your host and moderator for the show. This show is dedicated to helping executives like you amplify your leadership impact, gain fresh insights and build the resilience needed to thrive in today's topsy-turvy world that we live in. We feature two types of guests on the show thought leaders in leadership development, organizational culture and team dynamics, who share strategies tailored to your challenges as an executive. We also feature seasoned executives who fully have embraced their own leadership development and recognize that people and culture are the keys to maximizing organizational value. Now, at its core, this show is about pioneering breakthroughs in leadership and culture development, ensuring you provide rewarding work experiences while inspiring excellence and others to serve the greater good in your organization and culture is created and sustained through leadership. Thus, leading is the core of your success. We believe that effective leadership begins from within and that true impact comes from self-mastery, the foundation for leaders leading others with clarity and confidence. In these disruptive times. Self-mastery isn't just beneficial, it's essential to your success. So when executives harness their inner resourcefulness and lead from the inside out, they unlock the full potential of collaboration, which is the most powerful unifying force any organization can wield Today.

Speaker 2: 2:13

I'm pleased to be joined by special guest CIO Nate Melby, who I've been looking forward to talking to since we first connected. I know you have an incredible background, a powerful mixture of experiences that are going to add a lot of value to our listeners. So really welcome to the show, nate. It's great to have you here today. Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to joining you Very good. Well, I wanted to spend a little bit of time singing your praises. So I know you're a humble guy. You're just going to have to put up with it, but I appreciate it. I think the audience would appreciate knowing your background a little bit.

Speaker 2: 2:44

Nate is the Vice President and Chief Information Officer at Dairyland Power Cooperative, headquartered in Wisconsin, and has been with the organization since 2016. As Vice President and CEO, you're responsible for leading strategy development and implementation of information technology initiatives and systems that align and advance Dairyland's business operation strategies. Nate has a Bachelor of Science and Information Systems from the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse, a Master of Business Administration with an emphasis on technology and training from the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater and a PhD in Information Systems from Novoly Southwestern University, specializing in information security and telecommunications. He earned a Certificate of Management and Excellence from Harvard Business School and completed the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth's Business Engagement for Security Professionals Executive Program. And in 2004, you earned the Wisconsin CEO of the Year Orby Award in the large corporation category. So you're also an active member of your community.

Speaker 2: 3:50

Nate is a fire chief of the town of Campbell Fire Department and serves on the board of directors of the Wisconsin State Fire Chiefs Association. He's a recipient of the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse's RADA Distinguished Alumni Award, wisconsin Lacrosse's RADA Distinguished Alumni Award. Now, prior to joining Dairyland, he led information security for Ingersoll Rand and Lacrosse, wisconsin. He also had other positions at Global Communications and Engineering and Architecture, data Communications and Information Technology at Trane and American Standard Companies. And you live in Wisconsin with your family and when you have time which, given everything I just said, I don't know how you do I think you just enjoy spending time with your kids and having fun with their activities. I mean, I would imagine going down to their not down to their level, but being a kid with a kid is probably a good change of pace for you.

Speaker 3: 4:38

Everything.

Speaker 2: 4:39

I just said.

Speaker 3: 4:40

Yeah, it is. It's always nice to see those life experiences for the first time. There's a lot of them.

Speaker 2: 4:46

Yeah, it is. It is Well good. It's great to have you to show us.

Speaker 3: 4:49

I mean, I added a lot there Is there anything else you wanted to add or share at this point. Well, you know, I've thought it's hard for me to hear my own bio like that, but I appreciate you sharing the story. The only thing that I want to add is you know a lot of my journey, professionally or academically, or even the fire service journey. It's about curiosity and challenge.

Speaker 2: 5:21

So you know those things that I've accumulated away and personal challenges, professional challenges, and I've enjoyed them. Yeah well, I'd love it to add a little color to that bio that I just shared. If you could just talk a little bit about, you know, your human journey. If it will, because we all end up at a place that we look back and sometimes say I did all that, how did I get here? There's like chapters in life, right, and it's kind of always interesting to see how they intersect and connect the build to where you're at today. So if you could just say a little bit about that journey and, uh, you know how, wherever you want to start, and you know ending with being a dairy Sure.

Speaker 3: 5:54

So you know I I didn't set out to be a PhD in my education, but I think my journey brought me there. I also didn't know when I began my business career to become an executive or a CIO, although I love the technology challenges, and in the fire service too, when I joined the fire department as a volunteer, it was to try to help my community and be part of a team. I just found myself over time saying, yeah, I'll try that next thing, I'll learn that next thing, I'll learn that next thing, I'll see if I can do that. And I think it's kind of the same story across all of those different areas of focus.

Speaker 3: 6:33

But for me, I've been fortunate to find opportunity where I can look for those next challenges and try to solve problems. I've got some value where I am and I've also had the benefit of working with a lot of really good people that believe in me. That helped me do those things. I think, regardless of you, whether it's the professional journey or the other journeys, people hold us up on their shoulders. They create opportunities for us, sometimes opportunities maybe we didn't see ourselves. They see us from different perspectives, and so that's really my dream is I've had a lot of good people along the way that have believed in me and said hey, you should think about that or try that. I thought, well, that's interesting and I've been curious enough to give it a shot.

Speaker 2: 7:20

You know. I mean, there's a lot to unpack in what you just said. You know, one of the things I think and I've seen this in executives, or even sometimes it's at the director level or VP level there's this like they have this target in their eyes that they're going after. I want to rise, I want to go to the next step. I might be love technology and then I have a dream to become a CIO. Nothing wrong with any of that. But what I heard you say is it was passion and curiosity. Was that what you said? The kind of energy of passion and curiosity? You weren't looking. It seems to me like you kind of wrap yourself in whatever you're up to and completely dive in and do your best to learn, to grow, to develop, and even some people might have to tap you on the shoulder and say hey, nate, look over here, there's something you should consider doing next. Is that kind of the way it's been for you, would you say? Is that a fair description?

Speaker 3: 8:10

I would say that that's exactly the way it's been for me, and I think I'm very driven and certainly very ambitious. But for me I tend to focus on whatever that passionate goal is, and so sometimes, you know, looking forward, I do think about what's next and I do look forward, but you know, the best opportunities for me have been what other people have brought to me and said hey, have you thought about this?

Speaker 3: 8:37

And so I've always been open to those kinds of things, because that's where, for me, some of the biggest opportunities have been.

Speaker 2: 8:44

Absolutely, absolutely Again, when you get to my stage, you're still a little younger than I am. Probably you look back and you say I sweated a lot more than I needed to Not that I didn't, and sometimes I might not have been in the midst of an opportunity.

Speaker 2: 9:03

Now I see I had. I might not have been in the midst of an opportunity now I see I had. I might not have fully embraced that opportunity, which would have led either to the same place or someplace better. I mean, I think that's one of the lifelines you get as you move along, as you wish kids, younger generation, would get. That it's just don't worry about when you're going to become CEO, you know. Just embrace what you've got now, because it's, first of all, life is short and, second of all, it tends to work out better that way.

Speaker 3: 9:30

You're in just another gateway. Yeah, there are many roads to get to the same place for sure.

Speaker 2: 9:36

Yeah, yeah, the other thing you said, which I'm wondering if it informs your leadership, is people kind of helped you see things you didn't see. Is that? Do you feel like you have that integrate, that got integrated into how you lead to that? You're looking at your direct reports and seeing, seeing maybe sometimes more in them, them than they may have even seen themselves, and then you have a kind of enjoyment in bringing that out or sharing that with them or helping them get to the next level.

Speaker 3: 10:03

Yeah, yeah, I enjoy working with a team and trying to find the right pieces of the puzzle to put together to get the maximum result, and I enjoy being part of a team where I'm contributing and one of those pieces of the puzzle too, and so I've seen through the course of my own professional development sometimes someone else sees something in you or about you that maybe you don't see in yourself. I had a CIO that did that for me once, and you know it's not always the critical types of feedback, although that is valuable too and helps you grow. That is valuable too and helps you grow. But you know, sometimes it's the.

Speaker 3: 10:45

Have you ever considered this really big opportunity that you maybe thought, well, that wasn't for me, or I'm not the right fit, or that just wasn't on my radar? You know, using your own self-awareness, the lessons that they share with you. I think the end result for all of us can be better than it is if we're just working. So I feel it's a professional obligation as a leader to work with the team and trying to turn the lights on for those kinds of things for them and share it where I can and help them achieve their goals. I also appreciate it when my teammates or my leaders do that for me.

Speaker 2: 11:28

Absolutely Well, you know you're pointing to something and I'm going to admit to my audience, but I'd be tired of me saying this.

Speaker 2: 11:33

But you know the times that we're in right now where there's so much divisiveness in the world. The workplace can be a place where you find that connectivity certainly your family and your community around you but the workplace can be a place where you can really find that sense of human connection and meaning and value just by doing the work, working with the team and obviously when you have a good leader, that's what really makes a difference and you understand why you're there and you're excited about being there, right? So I think that this is where I think I try to tell this to executives all the time. You you touch so many lives. Your outcomes of your job, or or what you're paid for it, are obviously critically important, but the the bonus and the cherry on top is the impact you can have on those that show up to work every day. They're living in this challenging world right now where they can kind of feel that connection, yeah, One of the things that I've experienced firsthand.

Speaker 3: 12:35

all people, I mean. I've seen people from a different perspective in my volunteer role as a fire chief. All people are more alike.

Speaker 3: 12:43

We have more things in common that we do the things that we do, but we tend to focus on things that don't. And, you know, sometimes I think it's important for all of us to realize how close we all really are and how much we depend on each other. That's what a small community is is people that rely on each other. You know, for everything to work and it's the same in a business, you know our teams are teams for a reason. We don't have one person that works as an entire IT department in a large company. We have many. We all have specialties and, you know, we put it together and we contribute our talents toward the end result. You know, I think sometimes my role is more as that conductor where I'm trying to help everyone, you know, provide those talents in the right places at the right time to keep things moving down the track. So we move on too.

Speaker 2: 13:33

Absolutely Well. I think you know my definition of leadership is that leaders ultimately create an environment to do just that. That's your job is to conduct create the environment that allows for the best in people to come forward right. And the other thing you said is beautiful too the connecting of people coming together and seeing what you do in your community service role and I'm reflecting on still have my heart and created something out of nothing. That was amazing. You know, it's just. You can see when human beings, you know and it usually takes crisis sometimes for that to happen and you come together as a group of people. The multiplication is not addition, it's multiplication of impact. It's really beautiful to see it. Still, obviously, you don't want to see what they're dealing with. So how did you come to Dairyland Power Cooperative? What was the process back in 2016 that led you there, and tell us a little bit about the mission of Dairyland as well.

Speaker 3: 14:41

Sure. So Dairyland is a power cooperative, so we provide electricity to four states here in the midwest of minnesota, wisconsin and illinois and iowa, and we have 24 distribution cooperatives and 27 municipal utilities that are members. So dairy land's board of directors is formed not board members from the Class A cooperatives, and so it's a little different form of business if you're not familiar with cooperatives, but it's highly democratic, highly collaborative, and so it's very much a grassroots way of providing the services that we provide, and we do it with members, because they're the ones that are our priorities, all the way from the boardroom through execution. And so I became the CIO at Dairyland in 2016 after 16 years at American Standard train and yourself, which were a series of acquisitions, but all the same, large global companies, and I led information security. So I built a cybersecurity team for the company and I had all these wonderful opportunities from my own professional growth there, where I began as an intern and I worked through different roles of increasing responsibilities, network security, and ultimately became a director that was responsible for building this global cyber team. We started from scratch. I was the first cybersecurity role. I built a large team that spanned the globe and some very complex challenges for the company and I reached a point in my career where I either needed to continue down the focus of a technical track and continue building a global team.

Speaker 3: 16:34

But this opportunity came at Dairyland to become a CIO and I had always thought that maybe further down the road in my career that I might want to lead IT for a good, large organization. I just never thought it would happen that quickly. It was literally a mile from dust, and so we had some conversations and then an offer came and I had a decision to make and so I joined Dairyland. I was their first CIO. We had a transformation, a decision to make, and so I joined Dairyland. I was their first CIO. We had a transformation that needed to happen, and so we went through this series of several steps. We did infrastructure transformation, applications transformation, erp implementation and we transformed IT.

Speaker 3: 17:20

It's been a lot of fun. You know that again, it's the whole journey of I wonder if I can be a good CIO, I wonder if I can help that company do that thing that they need to do. And when I came to Daryl and met the people and I saw that we had very talented people and really good team but maybe we could change some things. In strategic view of technology, we thought this is a situation where we can. We can start to make some difference for the company here. So it's that part of it has been really rewarding for me. It's been fun to see how far we've come from where we began was it a little bit of a big gulp to take the job?

Speaker 2: 17:57

do you remember that moment to like? Did you walk in the door wondering if, what, what did you do or you're ready? Did you have any of that concern when you stepped in the door?

Speaker 3: 18:08

Well, to be honest, yeah, I did.

Speaker 2: 18:09

I would imagine you would, yeah, anybody.

Speaker 3: 18:16

It's a big step in a big organization and different kind of organization, different kind of product. You think about the nine lives of a cat.

Speaker 3: 18:20

I wondered if I was about to use one I wondered if I was about to use one, but the thing that I had thought about was you know, sometimes people step into a CIO role but they haven't been before and it's a company that has an established CIO. Sometimes people become the first CIO company, but they have experiences as a CIO in other places. I was a first-time CIO, as a new CIO, so I think in some ways that was good, because I maybe didn't know what I didn't know, but I also had an organization that was very supportive that helped me learn and grow, helped me as I tried to tackle some of the problems. I had a really good team that was supporting all of that too.

Speaker 2: 19:04

It sounds like it was a marriage made in heaven, so it sounds like a perfect fit. I want to talk a little bit about the power grid for a second, because we take this power grid that we have for granted. We're going to go over this power switch. The switch is going to go on, the internet's going to go on, the computer will just work. Yet I also know that there are nefarious forces in the world today that were trying to attack our power grid. I've heard about it. There's also the MP attack concerns and all these things. I don't know if those kinds of things and I would imagine that that's one of the things you were addressing in cybersecurity is one of the things that you're keeping you up at night. Can you talk a little bit about the level of threat we're facing and what the power grid at least in your purview, is doing to get ready to protect us from that kind of thing and to ward off attacks on infrastructure? Sure, I don't want you to give up secrets, but in general, make us feel better, yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:01

Well, of course, I'm ethically obligated, so there are some things that I'm not able to talk about, but what I would share is the graveness and severity of what that is is not lost on those of us. We spend a lot of time and energy planning and working to mitigate the risks where we can, working to mitigate the risks where we can. We also conduct drills where we practice. So it's not just something we talk about in the land of theory, we actually practice. What would we do if a certain scenario would occur?

Speaker 3: 20:34

And another thing about our industry is that we're very collaborative. So a lot of people don't know how in our network, so to speak, that utilities are, and so we're all dependent on each other. So, you know, a rising tide raises all ships, and so we work together across a variety of industry organizations to try to hold each other accountable, help each other. You know, learn and develop the processes and systems and things. But the thing that I would say is we face that threat every day. So every day there are, you know, attempts at every company's perimeter, but we face more because of what we do. We know the critical infrastructure, so we take that very seriously.

Speaker 2: 21:21

Well, thank you for doing that. I appreciate, we all appreciate it, and it sounds like this industry is highly cooperative. It's, I guess, you're you. You do have competition in a way, but in a way you don't, because you're regionally based usually, and regionally you're connected to your, your towns or cities that you're serving, and so there's more of an upside to cooperate than a downside to cooperate. Is that? Do I have that right? Am I reading that right?

Speaker 3: 21:47

Yeah, I would add even maybe an additional lens there. So the utilities are that way, absolutely. Among the cooperatives we collaborate even more highly, and so the business relationship between a cooperative like Dairyland and our members. It means that we're not just meeting at conferences and sharing information, we're actively working together, actively helping and supporting each other, and so we leverage the talent we have to share across our companies. Our members are our owners, so their priorities become our priorities, and so we work together on best practices and we work together on innovation, whether it's at a technology level or board committee level. That collaboration is happening every day in an organization across these 25, so obviously, and you've also been on the forefront of integrating AI and the edge of.

Speaker 2: 22:40

You know, edge computing and your work on the leading edge community. What excites you most about those technologies and the potential impact they can have on the energy industry and supporting the grid and so forth?

Speaker 3: 22:55

You know, the things that excite me are finding opportunities to create value from technology that we haven't created before, and I was in a unique position when it came to the AI edge conversation because I had spent some time as an academic working with what we now machine learn or official neural networks in the academic world of research, and so when we started talking about generative AI, it wasn't scary for me because I understood how it worked and I understood the strengths and weaknesses and limitations, and so to me it was more of a view of how do we take this wonderful technology and create the right opportunity to add some business value and maybe do something we haven't done before in a new way so that we can reduce cost or increase productivity and really bring that tech to bear to help our organizations be strengthened.

Speaker 3: 23:47

And it's been really fun doing that in the cooperative world because I'm seeing other cooperatives leveraging what we've talked about or ideas that we've worked with several other cooperatives to share our experiences and help them get started, and in turn, they share things and experience with us, and so it's been really neat because that highly collaborative, you get to see the revolution you need.

Speaker 2: 24:12

Your, your industry needs to start teaching people in the government how to be doing something that's cooperation we'll leave that there.

Speaker 2: 24:18

But, um, yeah, so it's really great to see when human beings do work together and there's an open transparency to whatever degree you could do that and you're working together, you're on the same mission. Probably at this stage it almost feels like you know your duty as a citizen of this country, kind of you're also doing that kind of work support the infrastructure of the country at the same time, so it's got to feel good to be able to do that.

Speaker 3: 24:45

You don't want that in that way one of the other things that that is a characteristic of our business model as a cooperative is that it is about democratic member control, and so it is a democracy action, and so that means that there are votes, and not every vote is always everyone in favor. So as a company we work through those kinds of things, but it is there for a reason. We respect that. You know, I think that's all part of this great equation too right, a little microcosm of great democracy, your philosophy on what democracy can be.

Speaker 2: 25:18

Yeah, and as an industry, do you have kind of like not your constitution, but do you have a kind of a shared vision? Do you have a? Do you have a? And what is that at an industry level If you're operating and this is instructive, I think, for other industries too. So I appreciate you sharing this. But what is the orientation? Why, would you know? Why does the ICO, cfos, all people in that industry cooperate? What are they orienting to as a shared vision, if they have that in a shared mission?

Speaker 3: 25:47

Yeah. So just like every company, we have our mission, vision and values, but as a cooperative there are seven cooperative principles and I can just run through them quickly. But the first is voluntary and open membership.

Speaker 3: 25:59

So if you want to be a member of the organization, then you can be given some constraints about what they do, stuff like that. The second is democratic member control, which I've mentioned. Member economic participation is third, and so that means everyone has a stake in the game, so our members are also our owners. Another thing that's interesting to note is that the electric cooperatives were formed in the 40s as a result of the New Deal, and so we were solving a problem where there was a quality of life difference. In rural areas they didn't have electricity, and the cities did, because it was more profitable to provide electricity in those cities the more urban it was, and so the folks in the rural areas banded together to create cooperatives to try to get power so that they could have better quality of life. And look at the result now, years later. So I was on three better quality of life and look at the result now, years later. So I was on three.

Speaker 3: 26:52

Number four is autonomy and independence. So even though we work together, each cooperative is its own organization. When I talk about Dairyland, we are our own utility. We have 24 members. They are also their utilities, but we work together for each other. The fifth is education, training and information, which means that we work together, we train together, we train together, we share things, we try to share our messaging, make sure that the general public and others are informed about what we're doing and try to be transparent about that. Number six is cooperation among cooperatives, and I think you know, even just from conversation, that's evident, that we all work together toward common goals, and we do that through local, state, national, international structures. And then, finally, concern for community is the seventh cooperative principle, and that means that, although we're focused on member needs, what we're trying to do is help develop communities, and that the policies that we apply in cooperatives help our communities with growth or help small communities, those communities, to sustain themselves.

Speaker 2: 27:58

And that is something that's an active, alive thing, that those principals, those tenants come into operation. If somebody is kind of going off the reservation or if we're making a decision and we might not be taking into account one or two, there's people raising their hands. Hey, we, these things, are guiding you actively along the way.

Speaker 3: 28:17

Yeah, yeah, I would call them guideposts in our business model. So you know they. They help inform the way that we operate.

Speaker 2: 28:25

Beautiful wow, really cool. Well, I want to turn to your community service work and and just ask you first of all what led you to be interested. And I mean, I want to turn to your community service work and just ask you first of all what led you to be interested in. I mean, most kids want to become firemen, right? Maybe that was as simple as it was, but what led you to get involved with the fire department? What would you know? What led you to go into your first day and join up, so to speak?

Speaker 3: 28:48

and join up, so to speak. So when I graduated from high school I had planned on playing football in college, and so I went away to a Division III college to play football and I got there and it wasn't really the right fit for me, and my grandparents had had a big influence in my life and my grandfather had some health issues that I just didn't feel right being, and so I withdrew from that university and enrolled at the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse, and the local fire chief was actually one of my friend's fathers. He gave me a call one day and he said I'm sure that you haven't thought about this, but you can still be on a team. I sure could use some help. I know that you're able-bodied, you're a college athlete. Would you think about trying? I said, well, sure, I'll give it a shot.

Speaker 3: 29:46

And from that phone call then I met a lot of really good people that were community minded. You know we had this common mission to provide public safety and respond to things that would happen. You started down a path of training that continued for a long time, so the rest was history. But that was the start it was. It was my friend's dad who gave me a call and said hey, I thought about you, would you consider this? And I thought that sounds like something I'd try.

Speaker 2: 30:14

Oh, perfect example of what you said earlier. You got tapped on the shoulder and there you get it. And then how many years were you in you know firefighter before you began to go into leadership in that community?

Speaker 3: 30:29

So in my department, as a volunteer department, the way that we are governed is we have elected, like a board of directors, an elected fire chief and the fire chief of police officers, so the lieutenants, captains, assistant chiefs.

Speaker 3: 30:47

And so I had been, I had been on the department for a short time, ended up becoming the department secretary, and that was a board position. Well, it was the board of trustees that would meet in. The secretary didn't have a vote, but was an advisor to the board. I would participate in the meetings, and after about four years our fire chief retired and we had a new fire chief, and that fire chief appointed me as an assistant chief of training and safety for the department, and so I found myself in a position where I knew that I needed more training to do well, and so I went. I got the training actually probably exceeded the minimum requirements, but I became certified as a fire instructor and went through a few different levels of firefighter training, began fire officer training, and so then, after that, I served as training and safety chief for eight years and then ran in an election to become fire chief.

Speaker 2: 32:00

Great, awesome. And when was that? What was your first year as fire chief?

Speaker 3: 32:05

2009 was my first year, so I've been the fire chief for 15 years. You have to go through re-election as well.

Speaker 2: 32:12

Is that true Every two years? Every two years, right? So as a fire chief and CIO, you were two very different leaderships. How has your experience in emergency response or community service shaped your approach to CIO and vice versa? I'd love you to share about that, because it's a couple of well, in certain ways you're in a cooperative environment there, but so it isn't pure corporate kind of leadership. But what would you say is how the two have informed each other?

Speaker 3: 32:45

Yeah, thank you for that question, because the fire service has been a huge part of my leadership journey.

Speaker 3: 32:51

I've learned, through the school of hard knocks sometimes, that I became a leader at a very young age within the fire service and I started to gain management skills and learn things that are important in my current field. I mean safety, for example, I was a safety chief fire department for you know the eight years there and then I was fire chief before I became a CIO, and so in the electric utility industry, safety is one of our most important concerns, just like fire service, and so that gave me the skills to understand that conversation, understand what it is, but I mean even just the basic management or the leadership skills. I cut my teeth on a lot of those things in the fire service first, and it gave me an opportunity to learn about myself, and learn about myself in a way that I would, you know, later maybe be professionally tested, but in an environment where it was a little different focus and it was a place where I could have those experiences and, in a positive way, make some wins and make some mistakes and learn from all of it.

Speaker 3: 34:07

I think that really helped me because when I became an executive I was doing a lot of those same types of them. I think that really helped me because when I became an executive, you know, I was doing a lot of those same types of things. In the fire service we call a fire chief an executive fire officer because that's an executive role too.

Speaker 2: 34:21

Well, I also imagine you know, I don't know you're as a fire chief, going on calls, you're running into all levels of the socioeconomic community and you talked about the common connections regardless of that, and I wonder if sometimes executives that may not have an experience like that kind of have to hit some walls in overstepping, over-controlling, over-micromanaging, whatever it is. I wonder if there is something there that you learned in serving people of all different and getting to know people and appreciating both their tragedies and challenges and overcoming that and dealing with that that has served you as an executive leader in an organization.

Speaker 3: 35:08

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that I think about sometimes in the fire service is that people don't call us on their best day. They call us on their worst day, when they're the most vulnerable and they need help they've never needed before. Sometimes that we talk about which is it parallels how I feel about the way we serve an organization from an IT standpoint that I'm not here for me, I'm here for we and we are here for them, and you have to keep that in front of your mind.

Speaker 3: 35:41

It's not about you know when you get called on that day somebody's in their worst time. You're there for them. There's no other place you should be in, there's no other focus you should be in and you know you're there to serve. And it's the same thing when we provide service to a complex business, you know we're there for that business and that business needs us. And you know if we get focused about only what is good for IT, we're missing them. We're there to serve that business need and we can do it really well when we're in the next step and good partners and all that.

Speaker 2: 36:17

And this is going a little deeper. So you know. But what have you learned about the human spirit and what's possible from either the confrontations you've had or the not confrontation but the situations you face as fire chief or in your role as ZIO, that have given you hope for our species a little bit?

Speaker 3: 36:40

Yeah, so I'll speak about them all together, because to me it really is all the same. Yeah, I think as a leader, sometimes you need to just be present and figure it out.

Speaker 3: 36:53

And the first step is showing up, so you know, you get to wherever it is and you gather information and you try to figure out what your variables are and which things can affect the change and how to do that. But when you start figuring it out, applying reason and logic I mean you can do almost anything you have to do it in a certain way. Sometimes, Like within the electric utilities, everything we do begins with safety, and so you have to put that first. But then when we're solving a business problem, or we're solving how do we meet a member, need conversation? Sometimes it starts with your size up. What do we have Now? Where do we go from here? And let's start knocking it down.

Speaker 2: 37:41

Yeah, that's well said. I mean, I think sometimes this whole issue of executive presence is misunderstood. It's sometimes about how you look and how you appear, how you show up strong. But to me, as I talk to my clients all the time, it's really about how can you be fully in the moment to soberly assess what's actually happening, not what you're reacting to. And the less you can be in a reactive place, the more you're present you can see the lay of the land better. Can be in a reactive place, the more you're present you can see the lay of the land better. A lot of times the solution is right there. You know, if we miss, if we're not present, then we spend a lot of time maybe studying the problem and we'll come back around to it, but we've lost a lot of time and people are in need a lot of times in those situations I don't know how you relate to what I just said.

Speaker 3: 38:33

Yeah, I think you're spot on. It begins with knowing where you should be. When you have an event happening within your organization, part of having a man presence is being present, so you need to get there and you need to get established. I do think I guess maybe I'm agreeing with you in a few different ways here, but I think when we talk about leadership, it's so much more than how you look. It's what you do. It's how you think, how you relate, how you're serving other people and are you meeting the needs that are established by them? Not just what you think the needs are, but it's putting all of those things together. And if you put it together in, the needs are, but it's putting all of those things together.

Speaker 3: 39:12

And if you put it together in the right way you have your positive outcome and everybody wins.

Speaker 2: 39:17

Yeah Well, what has been the biggest contributor to you to be in that present state of mind? What would you say? You've done that supported you, Obviously putting yourself in a lot of different situations and learning from it, but is there anything that you would say that has been cut as a grounding cord for you in that territory? That has?

Speaker 3: 39:40

served you to develop. That you know. I think that that is something that, for me, has evolved over time. I think you know, if I'm very early in my career, it was. You know that situation sounds interesting. Let's figure it out and get involved. And I think, as my career has gone, and I think about some of the things that you carry on your shoulders as an executive leader, you know, as a corporate leader. It's about how do I affect this positive change for my organization and help the people that are within it feel what success feels like if you can achieve it together. And I think that honestly keeps me grounded, because when it's not about just the thing you want for yourself, but it's this achievement that your whole team does together and you can do it together, it's it's really about the organization, all of you and I think sometimes you know people will get those two things confused and it's important to remember that. You know. That's back to the thing that I said before. We're here for, here for my team we succeed or fail together to succeed.

Speaker 2: 40:51

Well, and you know this is to be you. You know and I'm not trying to get you to be unhumble here, but you've been recognized and gotten numerous awards for your leadership and you know. So some of these things are your personal values and principles that guide you in decision making as a CIO, an executive leader, a fire chief. So I think you've said a lot in just the last couple of comments. Would you summarize, or you had to say that here's the four or five principles that I lead from, or the values that I lead from that are my guiding post for being effective day to day? What would you say?

Speaker 3: 41:26

So I do think about that, because, you know, I often try to keep myself grounded, and so mine are courtesy. First, humility, integrity, grit, because sometimes we deal with things where you have to bear down Absolutely Self-control. I think, especially the more complex our leadership roles are, you can end up in positions that are very challenging, very difficult, emotional sometimes. You have to be able to control yourself to be able to have the right response and to continue to be a good leader and promote followership in those times. And then also, I think, leadership courage. And then also, I think, leadership courage, you know, in order to take on something that a problem someone else hasn't solved yet, a very difficult situation, you have to have the courage to stand up and say I'm going to try to figure this out, they're going to help, we're going to do this together. If you focus on the fact that, it's scary or difficult you'll never.

Speaker 2: 42:32

You need to focus on what you can do. Well, that's true. Courage is taking action in the face of fear and self-doubt Right, and the biggest leaps that I've made in being an authentic expression of whatever this is I still don't know, but is when I've stepped and there's something that's in place for you to be willing. What do you think has to be in place for you willing so you're not just being stupid, flogging into a fire or something? What has to be in place for you to have that courage, as a leader, to take that big gulp and step in, and it doesn't matter because I got to get this done? What is that? What do you think that is for you?

Speaker 3: 43:16

You know you have to have support and, depending on your role, the support you need may be different. So you know I was fortunate here for our transformation. I had the support of our board and our executive leadership team and you know I was really, I would say, one of the lucky ones to have that level of support to deal with the change that we successfully made. You know, on the fire service side, the support of your department, your group, you know the people that are trusting you with hard decisions, and that same thing applies. You know, sometimes I blend all this together. This community is very similar, but the support of my organization, the IT team, the folks that say, hey, no, this is hard, but I believe that you can figure this out or we can figure this out together. If you have that support, it's a lot easier to stand and take on the hard thing because at least you know that if this thing can be figured out, that you've got the right people to do that, you're doing it together, you're not alone.

Speaker 2: 44:18

Yeah, absolutely Well, said Well. And as you look at your own development as a leader, there is a kind of a when leaders begin to season, there is a kind of an integration that happens with all those things. You're not thinking about situational leadership, you're not trying to figure out what style of leadership you're going to use.

Speaker 2: 44:38

To me, a lot of times, I think those trainings misguide people and get them away from leadership in a certain way, but there's a certain point when it and it sounds like it's happening to me where it begins to gel, and it's almost not an autopilot, because they're still slowing down, stepping back you got to have to do and all that. But when that happens, that's what authentic leadership is. You're a different leader than other people around you that are leaders, right, and it's almost like every leader is like a snowflake. They're different. But then there's these four things we all can say well, that is leadership. It's like you see it, you know it right, you know it, you feel it, you know it. And that takes grit, it takes keep on doing it, it takes being willing to make mistakes and keep going, stay as, learn to be as present as possible and over time, it starts going together. Has that been your experience, or?

Speaker 3: 45:34

It absolutely has. And actually, when we talk about leadership theory leadership theory has only uncovered some of these concepts in the last few years, even the concept of authentic leadership, and when we talk about that, we talk about a crucible. A leader that emerges is to endure some sort of a crucible, and some of the stories that I've shared those have been my crucible, absolutely, I think leadership always gives you challenges, but I think there's an awakening that happens with a leader when you go through that crucible, where you start to see that this is normal for a leader. These are the types of things that we need to respond to and the choices we care about and what guides us as we do that.

Speaker 2: 46:30

Well, I like that. You said that I mean there is the crucible and also the awakening. There is and the research even shows this that leadership is a kind of a higher and I'm not saying this better but a sense of desire to have an impact and have an impact on others around me. But at a certain moment the you comes together with that and it's like you just feel comfortable in your own skin and do you remember and sometimes people remember the day when that happens. I don't know if you do you remember a particular moment when you said, all of a sudden you say I feel like I'm in the group with it. Do you remember that?

Speaker 3: 47:20

Yeah, interesting because I did experience that. I went through a series of challenges where transformation is hard and some of it was a slog for myself and for my team.

Speaker 3: 47:34

Absolutely is hard, and some of it was a slog for myself and for my team, absolutely. We had gone live on a system and we were anticipating a lot of problems because it was a very complex effort, and all of a sudden it was like the crickets chirping and everything went well. We realized that we had done something that was very difficult and we did it well, and so that, for me, was one of those moments where I thought, boy, you know, we're starting to see the other side, that light at the end of the tunnel.

Speaker 2: 48:04

It all started from the other side, yeah, and a lot of your development as a leader has been experiential, through your experiences and jobs and opportunities. Have there been any investments that you've made that have been more formal, that you would say that contributed to your development of a leader and, if so, what were those things that really helped expedite this process in your learning and development?

Speaker 3: 48:32

So one of them was my formal education, although I don't, you know, I'm not a university professor. I have taught classes part-time on occasion and I enjoy that, but you know, I'm really an executive and that's what I do full time. That education helped me have a foundation, but also the experiences along the way toward the PhD, the process, the endurance that it took, the commitment, the level of effort. That, to me, was also part of that crucible and one of those experiences where I didn't have to do that. That was an investment made in myself, and it's not just a financial investment, right, it was experiential and so being able to understand how to establish yourself as an expert in research, create publications, contribute intellectually, those are all lessons that I learned as a part of it and it definitely benefited and continues to through the course of my career.

Speaker 2: 49:36

What advice do you give to your direct reports about what they have to do to further develop as a leader? What do you tend to coach them?

Speaker 3: 49:43

around. So one of the things that someone explained to me once and I relay this with my development conversations is that development is kind of like when you plant a palm tree. And if you go to Florida and you see palm trees everywhere, they plant the tree in the ground but they don't just leave the tree, they stake it up and they put stakes. As it grows and it grows taller and taller, they make sure that it grows straight by staking it where it needs stakes. I try to remember that because everybody's development is different. Everybody needs support in different areas.

Speaker 3: 50:18

Some of the lessons I've learned and the things that I've done it wouldn't be appropriate for me to tell everybody on my team you need to go get a PhD to do what I do. They all need different things. It's about finding what is the best fit for them, where they're motivated and what those opportunities could be, and so I try to find you know, whether it's executive education or training or experiential learning experiences within the company to broaden themselves. You know, those are all the ways that we can create the background and experience to try to grow into whatever comes next for our folks.

Speaker 2: 50:57

Oh, sid. Well, you know you're in a, you're in a, have a team and situations where you kind of have to be agile and ready to move on a dime sometimes. How do you help your team stay ahead of the curve and ensure they're agile and innovative in your sector, and it's constantly changing? How do you kind of help the team do that, or do you just think the work helps us do that? What are things that you do to help the team do that?

Speaker 3: 51:27

Yeah, so what you're talking about is innovation. How do we continue to reinvent ourselves and our careers and reinvent our teams and maybe reinvent the way we provide value to the organization from where we fit? And so the way that I look at that is you have to know where your opportunities lie, and so I'm constantly looking at the horizon and trying to say, ok, we don't want to, we don't want to miss a boat here. So what is coming next and how could we derive value from that, and how do we position ourselves to be ready when the opportunity arises? And one of the things that I think is a challenge sometimes in business is, you know, we talk about strategy.

Speaker 3: 52:09

You know, sometimes you know we just talk about it, but actual strategy.

Speaker 3: 52:14

Putting yourself right at that inflection at the right time, and so you can accelerate when you get there. And so that's always my goal is, you know, if I have new people within my team that have interests in areas of technology or changing this industry. We're just going through a transition, so our sources of energy are changing and that creates all this opportunity, because all this change and so some of the conversations we have within our team are we know that that's happened and we know that somewhat it's already started. So what can we learn from it and what can we position ourselves for so that in two, three years, when we see that wave from across our bottle, we're ready to make the right tack and we're ready to you know, approach that with the skills that we've gained between then and now, so that we're doing the right things to move us ahead. And so I think, looking at it through that lens, and you know, if you don't know what direction you're headed, you're never and there's a net right, you're never, never gonna get there, right?

Speaker 2: 53:15

yeah? Well, again, you know, and I would imagine that um, people that report to you know that's, that's your mindset, so they begin to think like that too. That's the goal, right? Um, I had one cfo that says you know, I don't expect anybody to come in an office with a problem if they haven't thought at least about one solution that they can share, and those are the kinds of things that she would train into her people. So I would imagine this whole idea around innovation and the way that you perceive it is something that gets in the water, is it?

Speaker 3: 53:47

fair to say. Yeah, it's very fair to say, and it's actually a lot of fun.

Speaker 2: 53:51

On purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 3: 53:57

It's pretty cool when people come into my office and they say, hey, I thought about this, and you can tell that they're starting to look. Their headlights are getting farther out, they're getting closer to the horizon, and especially in the utilities. We haven't traditionally been that way, so it's really fun to see that here and it helps us provide better service to our company and I've even seen it expand beyond just Darien but also to our members, because then all of a sudden we're in a thought leadership position and we can help them, and when we do that collaboratively together, we're providing just our own walls.

Speaker 2: 54:31

Yeah, that is really cool. So a couple more questions to wrap up. But one thing is is there's you know, because you're a CIO, I would imagine there's going to be a lot of information technology directors and VPs and people that might be tuning into this show For those technology leaders and executives and you shared a lot already about this and maybe it's just pulling it together but you want to take on and want to aspire to be a CIO or take on broader responsibilities. What advice do you have for those rising in IT in this time that you would suggest that they focus on? That is most important. Do you think to position them to be in the position of being yours?

Speaker 3: 55:10

So I think the most important thing is wherever you start, remember that that's where you're starting. It's a long road and you can do a lot of things along that road, and so, although in technology, we love technology and we tend to focus on it, it's okay to be passionate about it and learn it. When I was a network engineer, I still love network, I still enjoy that, but I also really love being a CFO. So you know, if you can embrace the challenges along the way, it's more about your adaptability and your ability to learn and curiosity. You can find a lot of reward along the way, and technology is an important part of that. But you know, technology changes. If you can be, as an individual, someone that's adaptable to that, you can be very successful.

Speaker 2: 56:02

I also hear you saying networking as well, as in making sure you're, you know, not just connecting with people around you but more broadly in the organization and more broadly Connecting with people around you but more broadly in the organization and more broadly outside of the organization, Getting to meet, hopefully, a couple of mentors along the way as well. That can help.

Speaker 3: 56:22

Yeah, I've been very fortunate. I have had some excellent mentors at different stages of my career and I've had people that have. You know, when I talk about the self-awareness truth, you know I've had people that have been very honest with me when I needed my own course corrections or, you know, during the times when I needed to be more ambitious or see something I didn't see. And you know everyone has those people. Make sure that you're open to that kind of feedback and understand when it's constructive and well-intended, and all of that because those are the things that people can see that you can't see for yourself, and so if you can develop your self-awareness along the way, that can pay dividends for you also.

Speaker 2: 57:10

Yeah, that's huge. That's the biggest part of leadership, I think, is the expansion of self-awareness at the top. If there is a competency to focus on, that's huge. That's the biggest part of leadership, I think, is the expansion of software. If there is a competency to focus on, that's the one to focus on, for sure, the technical nature of your job and what you're up to, but it's the quality of human being that you are that creates the stage for who you'll be as a leader. You've done some investigation over time about what things you care about, what values you care about, and then it's a matter of am I in integrity with living those myself before I can expect other people to live from my soapbox, preaching of them, so to speak. So anything you say about that is how did you come to recognize that these particular core values are really important to you and that they're serving, you're kind of guiding you as a leader? Where did you learn those things or learn that those things are important?

Speaker 3: 58:20

You know, my grandparents were a big influence on my life, um, on both both sides of my family and I think that there were some pretty strong values there that passed through to me. But when I began, when I began my corporate journey and also my other leadership journeys, I had maybe a recognition with myself about if I'm going to do this. I want to do this a certain way and it's possible to be all kinds of people and have all kinds of different values. But I felt that you know in my time that I'm spending on this earth, there's a way that I would like to have an impact and if I can do it in that way, that I would be satisfied with myself and with the things that I've accomplished during that time. So I think about that sometimes because those values really are my guidepost.

Speaker 3: 59:18

And you know one thing that I'll say and it's been something that is, I mean, through the journey I've learned and re-learned. You know, sometimes it's not the easiest road to tread. You know, sometimes I talk with people philosophically about what the high road really is. It's a narrow road and it's a dangerous road, and sometimes it's a difficult road beyond, but the thing is you're also staying in the ditch and everything that's in the ditch. So you know, I think, as leaders, sometimes our guideposts keep us on that path and help us steer clear of some of those other things, like we kind of talked about in the beginning of our conversation. There are many ways to get to the same place, but the decision about how you do that that's yours. It's your values that guide you through the process.

Speaker 2: 1:00:11

Well, and I'm hearing you that you have to have moments that you step back and whether it's journal reflect, think about those things that you stand on. You kind of have to say what is the high road I'm taking? I have to somehow create the. You know you, you got it from your grandparent, but then you have to articulate what you got from them in a way. Maybe they said the words, but you have to. What does that mean to me? How does that serve me? It's almost you have to articulate what you got from them in a way. Maybe they said the words, but you have to say what does that mean to me? How does that serve me? It's almost you have to create, go into yourself and pull the roadmap out so you can see it and then say is this something I want to hold myself accountable to and then make a decision yes, and that high road keeps me out of the ditches.

Speaker 2: 1:00:56

Sometimes you want to jump in the day. You know sometimes it's calling you. You know you gotta, you gotta hold to it, but that and that. But that's also learning, where we have places to heal and grow and develop. Uh, we're not perfect. We're not perfect. Sometimes we fall into the ditch right. It happens to all of us and yet those are.

Speaker 2: 1:01:16

Those are seminal moments too, because how did I get down here? What pulled me down here? Why didn't I stay consistent with what I said was important? How did I get triggered, etc I can share one example.

Speaker 3: 1:01:29

So I, you know I've mentioned my grandparents, and my parents should be included too. But both of my grandfathers were Norwegians and as a part of that Scandinavian culture, there's a concept that comes up sometimes where I mean they call it being too big. You never want to become too big, and that to me, is translated, you know, through, as a message of humility, right, and in those moments where you know you want to, you want to be effective and you know I'm certainly driven. But I've always had that thought in the back of my mind Am I doing this in a way where I'm doing it for all of these good reasons, not to become too big? And I think that's something that you know at my core it's probably the way it's raised in some ways and you know so, it's just kind of part of my fabric. But I also think that if I wouldn't have at some point asked myself that question, then those lessons would have been learned and then they wouldn't have been part of of crucible that I'm experienced when I'm asking myself those yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:38

I'll say any final words to feel complete, anything you wanted to say to complete your journey on this show with me today.

Speaker 3: 1:02:47

Well, you know, it's been very reflective for me to have this conversation with you, so thank you for that. You're welcome and I just really appreciate the opportunity to talk about my story and that you've been interested in it and that you've. You know, through your nuanced questions, you picked up on some of some things that others may not have, about just my style and my journey and all of that. So thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:03:15

Well, you're very welcome and thank you so much, nate, for sharing your insights around your role and your executive leadership, building culture and its application to technology, and also your community role and your service to your community and what you learned from that.

Speaker 2: 1:03:29

I mean, it was very, very touching and fulfilling to hear about it, and so I know a lot of our listeners have gained value from here listening to you today. So thank you again, yeah, and to all of you tuning in, thank you for being a part of this journey. Your time and attention is also important to me. If you found today's discussion valuable, please share this with your friends, your colleagues or anyone you think would benefit from knowing about this podcast. And remember you can catch us in all our episodes in video on YouTube and in video on Apple Podcasts, spotify, amazon Music and 12 other podcasting platforms. So until next time, keep leading with purpose and making an impact and maybe taking a few nuggets away from what you heard from Nate today and applying them. Have a great rest of your day. This is David Kragos, the Leadership Alchemist, signing off.